mr henderson
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 05:24 AM |
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Do kit manufacturers ask too much of their customers?
I've been involved with many different makes over the years, and my opinion is that yes, they do!
Probably the worst area is that of instructions. These are usually brief, vague and quite often downright wrong. Changes are made to specifications
but the instructions are quite often not updated. Far too little attention is paid to the ORDER in which the assembly should be undertaken, leading to
awkward jobs later which would have been so much easier earlier.
Fit and finish of the component parts is often less than it could be, too much fettling is required.
I'd be interested to know what others think about this.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 06:06 AM |
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You get what you pay for.
Pay £2k for a kit and you expect to do some work. Pay £15k for a caterham and you dont.
If all kits came with comprehensive instructions then they would all end up looking the same, and where's the fun in that?
Just IMO.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Mark G
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 06:22 AM |
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The MK instructions are so poor I've hardly looked at them. When I have needed them the info I need isn't there.
I agree that we don't want all of the cars to look the same but surely the suspension, steering, brakes and panels should only go on one way.
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mad4x4
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 06:23 AM |
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As flak said ..... you want the step by step instructions then kit building may not be for you.
The joy is to figure out "oh hell I should have fitted the brake pipes before the Diff os the diff comes out for the n th time...."
The SVA manual (IVA) should be your build manual not 3 sheets of paper from chassis supplier x. If the manual detailed where to put every screw and
how to fit every part we would all be driving the equivilent of MFI (ikea) furniture. (ie. flat pack)
[Edited on 30/303/09 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 06:25 AM |
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Do customers expect too much of their kit supplier?
To be honest, I sit well and truly on the fence with this one but I just thought I would put another side over.
Most of the guys I have experience of within the kit industry are very good engineers/fabricators but this does not mean that they can write about it!
The only option would be to get someone in to prepare some form of guide but that would cost and of course, as the customer, we would expect this FOC.
The same could be said for the fit and finish of the components. Stopping and correcting is time, effort and money that generates no return. They
could hardly justify a price increase for "New - Wishbone set that actually fits first time".
There are examples out there where it is more of a car-in-a-box with no fettling required and a comprehensive manual but you would have to be willing
to pay the price. In fundamental terms, a Caterham, a Westfield and an MK Indy are pretty much the same thing aren't they?
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iank
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 06:45 AM |
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I think I agree with all sides. There's is too much distance between budget kit manufacturers and the Westfield/Caterhams of this world in the
area of build manuals.
I think the reason is generally it's because of the characters involved. Love engineering, don't enjoy sales/customer service, and have
no aptitude or interest in writing a manual.
I'd agree with Mr Henderson that there should at a minimum be some good idea of the order of assembly, and it should be expected to be correct.
Even if it's not a great work with lots of detailed diagrams/engineering drawings it shouldn't get people into trouble by saying things
that are plain wrong.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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scootz
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 07:16 AM |
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Caterham are pretty damn decent with their build instructions.
Now, Ultima... well, I can only talk about their instruction manual circa 1999 as that relates to the Spyder kit I have, but it is dreadful. Starts
off pretty well, then you can tell that the author has got bored at the halfway stage as the detail becomes less and less... and less! They'd
have been as well just printing in big font - "and then you finish the car off - THE END!"
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handyandy
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 07:30 AM |
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interesting thread,
but as i,m only part way into the build of my chassis i cannot give an opinion on how the instructions from various kit producers compare, though i
feel the instruction manual that i have is very detailed & lots of back up is available............
i,m building the Haynes Roadster, so the book & the forum is very informative, & to have the author / creator of the design on hand makes me
feel confident for building my first kit, in fact when doing my research into wanting to build a kit it was the book & forum that clinched it for
me.
even tho the book is very clear it still gives room for an individual build.
andy
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02GF74
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 07:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
Most of the guys I have experience of within the kit industry are very good engineers/fabricators but this does not mean that they can write about it!
The only option would be to get someone in to prepare some form of guide but that would cost and of course, as the customer, we would expect this FOC.
The same could be said for the fit and finish of the components. Stopping and correcting is time, effort and money that generates no return.
Maybe true but when you buy a £ 8.99 Airfix model kit, you get a full instruction manual and car kits cost 20 times that at least.
In the age of the computa, updating a build manual should not be that time consuming.
As for not generating revenue, well not strictly true as a well written and detailed instruction manual would avoid calls from builder to ask how to
fit part a to part b.
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 07:39 AM |
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making grp etc fit perfectly will always be a job for the owner, however I would expect wishbones to fit strraight on and give the correct geometry,
Id expect the order of woks in te manual atleast to be correct etc
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coozer
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 07:45 AM |
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For me, as an engineer the build brochure was really only there as a guide to what to do first, next , last etc.
I referenced the SVA manual more to try and build an SVA friendly first time passer..
When I had problems with the build the manufacturer was there on the phone and sorted everything out with no hassle what so ever. That's why I
would recommend them and their kit.
There is also this fabulous resource and numorous other forums to get the info you need.
I don't think its fair to have a poke at suppliers as the quality of the cars has improved a great deal since SVA, and the build manuals, while
not fully comprehensive have to deal with customer variations and demands, but still provide some very useful information.
Just MHO mind you..
Steve
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Peteff
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 08:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Fit and finish of the component parts is often less than it could be, too much fettling is required.
I'd be interested to know what others think about this.
I built a Locost from the book and have helped with a few different makes, MK and MAC1# and don't think they are particularly bad. I have
chopped wings and sills etc. from production cars to fit replacements from various after market firms and don't think the kit parts take any
more adjusting than some of them.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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chrisg
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 10:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by handyandy
interesting thread,
but as i,m only part way into the build of my chassis i cannot give an opinion on how the instructions from various kit producers compare, though i
feel the instruction manual that i have is very detailed & lots of back up is available............
i,m building the Haynes Roadster, so the book & the forum is very informative, & to have the author / creator of the design on hand makes me
feel confident for building my first kit, in fact when doing my research into wanting to build a kit it was the book & forum that clinched it for
me.
even tho the book is very clear it still gives room for an individual build.
andy
God bless you Andy!
I am available to any manufacturers who'd like their manual rewriting/updating.
Reasonable rates, I'm here all week, tell your friends......
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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MikeR
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 11:45 AM |
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I'm not building the Haynes book, but have read it. I made the stupid mistake of building a locost from scratch with sod all experience behind
me. Its been a long struggle - but Chris's book is very helpful & i wish it had been released years ago. Heck, i might even have been on the
road by now.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 11:48 AM |
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Many years ago I went to a car show where Westfield were selling old build manuals, presumably to seduce prospective customers to the dark side...
mine proved very useful during my Locost build!
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Staple balls
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 11:56 AM |
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I don't really think MK asked too much.
Granted, I've barely even looked at the manual, and the guide for my VDO instruments is 4 times thicker.
But really, how difficult is it? engine in the front, wheels in the corners.
Course, this is why I bought a kit, enough to get me started with very little pissing about.
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mr henderson
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:13 PM |
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I think some of the responses here are from people with enough skill and determination to overcome small matters like not knowing how to fix piece A
to piece B, but there's a lot of people out there who find this stuff a lot more difficult.
As a person who has had to write instruction manuals inthe past I know how time-consuming and difficult it can be, and it's no wonder that many
kit manufacturers are so happy to shrug off that responsibility.
I think another reason why they are reluctant to put in writing how to fit a certain part in relation to another part is that they know damn well the
parts aren't going to fit properly anyway
John
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:27 PM |
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Well, I built my car from the original Ron Champion book - and we all know how accurate and helpful that is!
(about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in quite a few places)
...but it did get built (eventually)
[Edited on 30/3/09 by David Jenkins]
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RK
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:43 PM |
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Richard Quinn said it for me:
Only having experience with my so-called kit, and a few mechanics: They are "doers", not "talkers" or "writers".
If you are going after only mechanical geniuses, your market for sales is going to be quite small. So if I were a kit manufacturer, I'd get off
my welder and hire a manual writer. Look at Factory Five as an example. Do people complain the car is too easy to build? Most of us don't want
to be Henry Ford.
I don't like all the learning as I go (eight years of university was for that), I want a car put together. I know, I'm weird. I suspect I
am not alone however.
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A1
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:57 PM |
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i followed the instructions a bit with the first one, and i learnt easier ways of doing it for the second one... to be honest its easier without
them...
its kinda part of the game though methinks...
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RK
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 01:12 PM |
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Yes, but it leaves a lot of pissed off people who quit - probably the MAJORITY of Locost builders. That isn't good for anybody except the guy
who gets the deal on the part built.
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MikeLR
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 01:28 PM |
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There is a Tiger agent in the NW who sells very comprehensive photographic build on CD.
Many on here will vouch for its quality/usefullness.
Is it not possible ( and I think its been suggested before) to have on here an "X" build and then users could update and change/add to as
they see fit.
Mike
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Staple balls
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 01:32 PM |
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This is how I figure it;
If you want to assemble a car, buy a caterham. You'll get something pretty nice, and fairly similar to every other caterham out there.
The reason locost kits, and scratch built locosts are cheap is because you actually end up thinking, learning, and making a great deal of stuff
yourself.
I also suspect a fair number of people who do sell their unfinished kits do so because of SWMBO.
I bet a good percentage of those who give up on their project and sell it for whatever reason start a new one within 5 years too.
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mr henderson
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 01:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeLR
Is it not possible ( and I think its been suggested before) to have on here an "X" build and then users could update and change/add to as
they see fit.
Mike
'Course it's possible, good idea too.
Still I suppose as long as they keep selling them as they are then there will be little or no change.
It's interesting to notice the difference with the 'grown up' manufacturers, selling in quantity either means rock bottom prices and
that's been tried and usually ends in tears, or a much better attitude.
John
John
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Staple balls
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 01:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeLR
Is it not possible ( and I think its been suggested before) to have on here an "X" build and then users could update and change/add to as
they see fit.
Mike
A well looked after locost wiki could be a damn good idea, certainly helpful for things that come up a lot, but are always a bit unclear.
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