omega 24 v6
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 06:54 PM |
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Almost ready to give in
Well I'm just about at the stage of giving up with the megasquirt. I don't WANT to give up and admit defeat but I just seem to be going
round in circles.
I've had an inkling for a while due to a noise and the car holding back sometimes that the ign side is not working correctly. today I finally
got round to trying to identify the issue.
So I set up the timing gun ( std basic gun)and get the engine running ( it has always run) and warmed up in fact it's done 2k miles so far but
never to my totall satisfaction that all was well. .
Then I check that the idle advance is all good at 10 dbtdc ( and it is) BUT when I rev the engine the spark does not advance?? The timing light shows
a TDC line up instead of a BTDC line up as I would expect. Also at a certain throttle point the strobe light goes haywire in it sequence of flashing (
which would go a long way to explaining the missfire I've had). With the tuner studio running and showing various advance points on the map from
10 to 30 degrees BTDC the timing light shows a bang on TDC reading across most of these points on the map. WTF is going on? i want to be able to enjoy
my car now and be finished tinkering with it.
The setup is a c20 xe engine with gsxr 1000 ITBS and a 2.2 board running VR conditioner and wasted spark with extra code. The coil pack is a 4 pin one
from a x20xev vauxhall ( i changed the 3 pin one a while back and will change back to see if this resolves it but I doubt it).
I want to suceed with the squirt but really more than anything I want to drive and enjoy my car without the constant worry of will it blow up.
I have cross posted on the MS1 forum but as so many of you are m/squirters and been helpfull in the past then perhaps I can find the answer here.
thanks in advance for any help or comments folks.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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Paul (Notts)
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 07:06 PM |
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Are you using an edis system as well.
Sounds like its running in limp home mode. Giving 10 deg all the time until you rev up and then cutting the spark to protect the engine or VR signal
being lost at high rpm
JUST A WILD GUESS ON MY PART>
I have just started mapping my megasuirt so expect lots of problems ahead for me.
Paul
[Edited on 19/6/11 by Paul (Notts)]
Alos is there some issue with using a light on wasted spark systems ??
[Edited on 19/6/11 by Paul (Notts)]
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robocog
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 07:39 PM |
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Timing lights can cause interference and cause jittery behavior
I got my shift lights to go into disco mode and seemingly the logs went "a bit mental" when I used an "old fasioned direct to the
plug" type strobe
Don't think it did it when I borrowed a more expensive clamp type that also need to be wired across the battery for power
Log the rpm and see if it looks like it telling the truth or making it up as it goes along
Its a case of if its being fed with randomness it will spit randomness out
Regards
Rob
[Edited on 19/6/11 by robocog]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 07:50 PM |
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Its a clamp type that i am using but just a dumb flash no advance or anything dialed in. I just did a short tooth log and a short datalog and to look
at the log it looks like it's doing what it says BUT on the car the timing marks and strobe say otherwise and couple that with a hard knock
I'm getting I'm pretty sure the timing is not as the log says but more as the light says.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 08:00 PM |
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Oh and no edis I'm using on board bip373 wasted spark.
ETA just being doing some more reading and I wonder if my dwell settings are wrong?? I'm set at dwell control but perhaps it should be fixed
duty.
To clarify I have a 4 pin bosch vauxhall x20xe coil. I do have the older c20xe coil and it is creating the same problem but has only the three pin
connector
[Edited on 19/6/11 by omega 24 v6]
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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vinny1275
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 08:09 PM |
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Mines doing the same on a v3 board and using edis - I've been through the build manual and there are a couple of bits which seem to be wrong (I
didn't build the board) - if you didn't build it, is suggest looking at the board and making sure the correct build instructions were
followed (some of the hardware is different between edis and non-edis)
Also, are the vr wires definitely the right way round?
Cheers,
Vince
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 19/6/11 at 08:20 PM |
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built it myself vince and its done 2k miles but its always been at the back of my mind there was something about it not quite right. i fitted a new
airbox and ducted cold air from behind the scuttle and this new box is acting as an amplifier for the noise i thought i used to hear ( and now do hear
it all the time under certain throttle loads) to the point that i'm paranoid about it being wrong and doing severe engine damage.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 20/6/11 at 05:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
Well I'm just about at the stage of giving up with the megasquirt. I don't WANT to give up and admit defeat but I just seem to be going
round in circles.
I've had an inkling for a while due to a noise and the car holding back sometimes that the ign side is not working correctly. today I finally
got round to trying to identify the issue.
So I set up the timing gun ( std basic gun)and get the engine running ( it has always run) and warmed up in fact it's done 2k miles so far but
never to my totall satisfaction that all was well. .
Then I check that the idle advance is all good at 10 dbtdc ( and it is) BUT when I rev the engine the spark does not advance?? The timing light shows
a TDC line up instead of a BTDC line up as I would expect. Also at a certain throttle point the strobe light goes haywire in it sequence of flashing (
which would go a long way to explaining the missfire I've had). With the tuner studio running and showing various advance points on the map from
10 to 30 degrees BTDC the timing light shows a bang on TDC reading across most of these points on the map. WTF is going on? i want to be able to enjoy
my car now and be finished tinkering with it.
The setup is a c20 xe engine with gsxr 1000 ITBS and a 2.2 board running VR conditioner and wasted spark with extra code. The coil pack is a 4 pin one
from a x20xev vauxhall ( i changed the 3 pin one a while back and will change back to see if this resolves it but I doubt it).
I want to suceed with the squirt but really more than anything I want to drive and enjoy my car without the constant worry of will it blow up.
I have cross posted on the MS1 forum but as so many of you are m/squirters and been helpfull in the past then perhaps I can find the answer here.
thanks in advance for any help or comments folks.
Don't give up on megasquirt!!! what would you replace it with for the money? i'm not keen on omex (works OK but tuning software dated),
MBE/DTA too expensive.
If your car is idling OK than the VR sensor probably is the right way around, if it was the wrong way around the timing would still follow the map but
maybe a couple of degrees out. As your timing to fixed at 10degrees then that's NOT the problem.
Its not anything to do with the coilpacks or the dwell settings (dwell is the time the coils charge, not time they fire)
There is settings in MS1 for fixed advance, my money would be you have that set (default degrees) it should be "-10" (use map) in the
spark settings menu.
There is another setting for idle advance, switch this off also.
You must have a V2.2 fitted with an VR board and coil drivers? (v2.2 has no VR or drivers as standard)
If you cannot find the problem i'm willing to test your ECU and check your MSQ FOC (you only pay for postage)
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 20/6/11 at 05:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul (Notts)
Are you using an edis system as well.
Sounds like its running in limp home mode. Giving 10 deg all the time until you rev up and then cutting the spark to protect the engine or VR signal
being lost at high rpm
JUST A WILD GUESS ON MY PART>
I have just started mapping my megasuirt so expect lots of problems ahead for me.
Paul
[Edited on 19/6/11 by Paul (Notts)]
Alos is there some issue with using a light on wasted spark systems ??
[Edited on 19/6/11 by Paul (Notts)]
Hi Paul,
If you have any problem with megasquirt give me a shout, have installed and mapped over 30 of 'um!! some for people on this forum.
www.baileyperformance.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 20/6/11 at 06:53 PM |
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I only know about the EDIS method but if you're using MSExtra code there's an additional wire has to be added to the board to make it
work. I know as when I first built mine I missed out the extra wire link and it does exactly as you say. The log gives the impression of the advance
working but the reality is nothing's moving. I'll have a browse through the online build manuals and see if I can find the right page.
Added a bit later...
Somewhere in the build manual (around step 22 in my version) there's a line something like this. Follow the link where it says check your
documentation and then you can confirm you have the extra connections. It's not that obvious when you're building the MS, I missed it.
"If you will be using an ignition output signal to control a coil or ignition module with MS-II, you will, likely be directed to jumper JS10 to:
IGN, or
IGBTIN, with IGBTOUT jumpered to IGN
(Check the documentation for your ignition set-up!)."
[Edited on 20/6/11 by fatbaldbloke]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 20/6/11 at 09:09 PM |
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Fatbald bloke you have stirred something in my head (but mines is MS1 not MS2) with the link on the board comment. it's 4 years since i built
the board and do remember in the distant past something along those lines so I will investigate that thanks.
Baileyperformance many thanks for your kind offer but at the moment I would like to win this battle by myself if I can.
[Edited on 20/6/11 by omega 24 v6]
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 20/6/11 at 09:44 PM |
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I think the various mods to use the MSExtra code with MS1 are in here.
Link Here
[Edited on 20/6/11 by fatbaldbloke]
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corpi
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| posted on 21/6/11 at 01:25 PM |
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I had something similar on my XE with Megasquirt.
I use the standard VR sensor, and it's cable ran neatly through the trough between the cams, together with the sparkplug leads. nicely covered
by the ally cover.
it would run fine one moment, and misfire around a certain rpm/load (but not always exactly the same....)
mine is different as I use MS to power regular coil and a dizzy to point to the correct cylinder. which gave me NO limp home mode!
I rerouted the VR cable over the head and along the top of the inlet manifold. problem gone never!! had a misfire since!!
almost 3 years now! Trip to Italy and back, and another to Scotland. plus regular short trips around Holland!
I'm a happy MS'er :-)
hope yours is a easy to solve.... Finding the cause was the difficult bit :-)
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 21/6/11 at 04:39 PM |
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vr sensor is well away from spark plug leads and datalog shows none or very little noise. It's just plain and simply not advancing the spark.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 21/6/11 at 09:25 PM |
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I'm going to suggest that if the datalog shows it as advancing the spark but the timing light is completely static it has to be an internal
issue in the output stage of the ECU as that's all that's between the two. It might be worth posting the same query in the MS forum as
there are some electronic gurus look in there from time to time.
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 21/6/11 at 09:54 PM |
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Have posted in the Ms1 forum so we will see what pops up.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 30/6/11 at 11:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
Fatbald bloke you have stirred something in my head (but mines is MS1 not MS2) with the link on the board comment. it's 4 years since i built
the board and do remember in the distant past something along those lines so I will investigate that thanks.
Baileyperformance many thanks for your kind offer but at the moment I would like to win this battle by myself if I can.
[Edited on 20/6/11 by omega 24 v6]
Did you sort out your problem? if not did you try the things i suggest? will help FOC if you get stuck!!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 2/7/11 at 05:41 PM |
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Not sorted yet. i've been away so not had time. I did discover a wrong polarity vr sensor and changed it round. I also tried changing the fixed
timing from 10 to 20 and 30 and it does move when you do this. I'm also pretty sure it's not jumping back to TDC when reving it. if
it's fine 2 morro I'll give it a blast.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 3/7/11 at 09:06 AM |
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If the ignition advances when you set fixed timing this tends to imply that electronically all is well. Is it possible there's a set up error.
I'll try and post what my set up tables look like (in Megatune, bear in mind I'm using EDIS as well). The bit I think may be crucial is
checking you have TPS on the y-axis of the advance table.
[Edited on 3/7/11 by fatbaldbloke]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 10/7/11 at 05:46 PM |
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Well changing the polarity has made little difference. it does pull away from cold a bit better/smoother And I'll need to check if the timing is
advancing or not. BUT the downside is that it now loses all power/accel at 4k revs. almost like the limiter kicks in ( but its set at 6K). Pig sick of
entire setup is an understatment.Wish I was nearer some of you guys. I could send the ecu out BUT don't know if that is the answer ( plus
I'd lose the summer again.)
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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daxtojeiro
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| posted on 10/7/11 at 07:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
Well changing the polarity has made little difference. it does pull away from cold a bit better/smoother And I'll need to check if the timing is
advancing or not. BUT the downside is that it now loses all power/accel at 4k revs. almost like the limiter kicks in ( but its set at 6K). Pig sick of
entire setup is an understatment.Wish I was nearer some of you guys. I could send the ecu out BUT don't know if that is the answer ( plus
I'd lose the summer again.)
Send me an email (philip.extraefi(at)ntlworld.com) and I will send you my address. Pop it in the post to me and I will test and set the ECU up for
you. At least that eliminates the ECU
Phil
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 11/7/11 at 08:07 PM |
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I know this won't help, but this is really interesting. I have a guy in Florida who's dropped me a note asking for my map tables as his
Zetec runs well up to 4000 rpm then won't go any faster. He says he's seeing real time AFR values of around 10:1 at that point, which
implies it's running hugely rich. It may just be a coincidence, but I'd be really interested to know what Phil finds if you send him the
ECU.
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Oddified
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| posted on 12/7/11 at 07:47 AM |
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I've no experience with the megasquirts etc, but with mbe ecu's if you set the coil dwell time far to long, it acts as a rev limiter when
the dwell time is longer than an engine rev irrespective of the actual rev limiter setting.
Ian
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 12/7/11 at 08:44 AM |
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quote:
I've no experience with the megasquirts etc, but with mbe ecu's if you set the coil dwell time far to long, it acts as a rev limiter when
the dwell time is longer than an engine rev irrespective of the actual rev limiter setting.
That's an amazingly good call IMHO. I notice that Mr 24V6 isn't using EDIS (in which case it would be irrelevant) but is using the ecu to
drive the coils, so it could be very relevant. Makes a lot of sense.
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 12/7/11 at 11:34 AM |
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Guys thanks for your input.
Phil is currently looking at detailed photos of my board and setup to see if he can spot anything untoward.
As for the rev problem well I had this from day one. At first nothing above 2500 then up to 4000 then full revs ( all changed by swapping a resistor
across the vr input signal. Now it will rev its t*ts off no problem BUT when I reversed the vr polarity it's strangled at 4k revs for some
reason.
Just to recap I'm 99% sure once I get this ign advance problem sorted out all will be fine. HOPEFULLY.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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