AlexXtreme
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| posted on 13/4/15 at 04:20 PM |
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what size facet pump as primer for swirl pot
As above I am adding a swirl pot and a facet pump to an injection system to get rid of fuel starvation issues:
The HP pump is brand new Bosch job (3bar 135ltr / hr)
The facet pump will be right under the tank (200mm away) but will not much room after I have the filter there as well
The swirl pump and HP will be to one side of the engine (the opposite side to the infections system)
The engine is a zetec 1.6 pushing out around 150hp
I called one company for recommendations and they said I should use a red top facet pump to give me the high volume (180 ltr / hour).
eg http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/facet-fuel-pumps/facet-cylindrical-pump-12v-24v/facet-red-top-cylindrical-fuel-pump-kit-8mm-tails/
Why should I not use a smaller / lighter (and lower cost facet pump that runs at around 130ltr /hour (or around the same as the HP pump)?
http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/facet-fuel-pumps/facet-solid-state-pump-12v-24v/facet-solid-state-pump-kit-40106k/
My thoughts is that most of the fuel from the HP pump is flowing back from the fuel return to the swirl pot so why do I need such a nigh capacity pump
as the primer pump?
Thanks in advance for your comments
Alex
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40inches
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| posted on 13/4/15 at 04:24 PM |
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I already have a bike pump (ZX9R) in place so I will be using that.
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SPYDER
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| posted on 13/4/15 at 05:46 PM |
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Hi Alex! The lower output pump should be fine. It does not have to cope with peak flow requirements.
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 13/4/15 at 07:28 PM |
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Absolutely no need for a 180 l/hr lift pump!
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unijacko67
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| posted on 13/4/15 at 09:53 PM |
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I've been advised to use Facet blue top (slightly courser internal filter than the red top),mounted vertically, then into cav filter with 8-12
micron spin on filter before swirl pot, out into HP Bosch pump mounted horizontally and 3 micron filter just before fuel rail entry.
http://www.kittenkitcar.co.uk
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 07:49 AM |
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HI Unijack067, why the blue top which is even higher spec than the red top (and more expensive!)? Who gave you the advice and did the explain why?
My thoughts match the other comments here so was going for a 130ltr / hr lift pump - or 29 gallons / hr.
I cant see that amount of fuel ever being required :-)... so why did 3 companies suggest much bigger pumps. Perhaps they are more used to specing
v.high performance high HP race cars
Cheers
Alex
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Chris_Xtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 08:11 AM |
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When I just switched to EFI, from my googling and reading previoud posts I went for a red top.. Now I an running a rover v8 which may glug fuel at a
far more rapid rate that you are planning, so maybe (although I don't think) I need such a big LP pump.
Isn't there something about the cylindrical ones being interrupter pumps where as the square ones aren't ?
I've yet to fit a flow restrictor but having one would cause the red top at least, if not the square ones too to calm down.
just read this:
https://www.merlinmotorspo
rt.co.uk/knowledge_base_articles/view/facet-fuel-pumps-for-vehicles-running-carburettors-282
think I may be wrong about the interrupter business..
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 08:57 AM |
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Thanks Chris...
Does anyone know the difference between the facet pumps ... what is an "interrupter pump"? I can believe it is about volume of flow as
28g/hour should be plenty even for a rover V8 :-)
Alex
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blue2cv
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 09:33 AM |
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Wouldnt be simpler to mod tank to incorporate a plenum in base
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 09:40 AM |
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Hi Blue2cv, I thought of this. Firstly I would be nervous to weld fuel tank myself (I also don't have the kit :-)) and as it is st.steel tank, I
it will be expensive job (more than a swirl pot and pump).
Alex
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britishtrident
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 09:40 AM |
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How big is the swirl pot ? Unless the swirl pot is tiny the lift pump flow rate can be a fair bit lower than the HP pump.
The return line to the tank should be a smaller diameter than the suction lines line.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 09:53 AM |
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Hi, I was planning a 1lt pot as I dont have much room :-).
All the pipes for the return and supply are 8mm dia and I cant easy change them.
Why should the return be smaller - I heard this makes the pump quieter. If this is the case and could I partially pinch the return rubber tube to
create a restriction or what did you do?
Alex
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Chris_Xtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 10:09 AM |
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not sure if you have seen these:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=193212
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=196333
someone suggests in a post somewhere - not in either of the above, using the shank of a M8 bolt and drilling a 1mm hole in it to restrict the return
to the tank from the swirl pot, this allows the pump to calm down and also stops the fuel wizzing around at full speed and dropping back into the
tank. NOt done this myself yet, but it is how I will reduce the 8mm return I have. I pinched the return pipe with some pliers to prove it in
principle.
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 11:28 AM |
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Hi Chris,
Thanks and I think you have found the issue with the lower volume std pumps... I will try the 1mm (or so) hole in a 8mm M8 shank as it sounds like a
great idea!
Did you get fuel issues on your xtreme before you went to the swirl pot? The shape if the tank is not that good is it! It also is slow to fill and a
simple built-in sump would make quite a difference.
Cheers
Alex
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Chris_Xtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 11:34 AM |
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I took the car off the road last march to switch from carbs to EFI, so introduced a swirl pot for that reason.
(and duh to me I just realised you have a Q X too !)
[Edited on 14/4/15 by Chris_Xtreme]
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r1_pete
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 12:16 PM |
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A popular mod in Subaru circles, and one I've used on my Jaguar installation is a RC Model fuel tank as a swirl pot inside the tank:
 
pot2
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 12:48 PM |
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Hi Pete, That is a great idea for a system with an in-tank pump! unfortunately the take off is from the bottom of my tank and not in the lid (is its
actually the other side of a baffle so it is not possible to access this area at all to make something equivalent! Alex
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unijacko67
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 04:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AlexXtreme
HI Unijack067, why the blue top which is even higher spec than the red top (and more expensive!)? Who gave you the advice and did the explain why?
My thoughts match the other comments here so was going for a 130ltr / hr lift pump - or 29 gallons / hr.
I cant see that amount of fuel ever being required :-)... so why did 3 companies suggest much bigger pumps. Perhaps they are more used to specing
v.high performance high HP race cars
Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex, I believe it's to have a huge amount of constantly filtered fuel in the swirl pot hence the big spin on CAV filter. My swirl pot is
internal to the tank so not sure how big it is, but apparently (AH Fabrication) enough fuel for about 30 seconds which is far more than enough for me.
There are sure to be cheaper pumps with more than enough capacity, but that's what I've been told to use, 2465cc Honda s2000 engine. My
engine chap is a top race engine builder so like a comment earlier in the thread he is very thorough and prefers things to be better than needed if
possible. Hope that helps.
http://www.kittenkitcar.co.uk
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 04:08 PM |
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HI Unijack067, sounds like a nice set-up :-) and you have any internal and external swirl pot :-)
cheers
Alex
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unijacko67
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| posted on 14/4/15 at 04:48 PM |
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It's taking ages though, lol 
http://www.kittenkitcar.co.uk
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 20/4/15 at 03:23 PM |
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Hi Guys, I am going for a small facet pump and a 1/2 ltr swirl pot in the engine bay. Will try a small section of "squeezed" copper tube a
restriction to see if this works (easier than drilling out a small bolt) as long as the copper does not show signs of splitting. Although the
restricted bit will be within the fuel hose!
Will keep you updated on progress and thanks for the help.
Alex
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 24/4/15 at 11:52 AM |
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Right - it is all stripped down and I empty the fuel tank (not a nice job) and it is a clean as a whistle! I cant see the end where the take off is
located as it is behind a baffle, however there is no sign of anything in the tank.
Going ahead with the new fuel system anyway as whilst it is all stripped - I might as well as hopefully this will clear the problem
Alex
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 11:41 AM |
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Project update...
Went for this priming pump
http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/facet-fuel-pumps/facet-solid-state-pump-12v-24v/facet-solid-state-pump-kit-40106k/
and this swirl pot
http://www.motorsport-tools.com/obp-bulk-head-mount-1-ltr-fuel-swirl-pot-obpa025.html
To get enough room on my Xtreme, with some help of hand made alloy brackets I mounted the swirl pot and the priming pump on the offside of the car
(the other side of the injection fuel pump). The fuel pipes looked reasonable neat in the end routing them above and below the diff, keeping them away
from any hot and moving parts ;-).
I tried running the system without any restriction on the return from the swirl pot to the tank but it was a bit noisy (could have been that it was
bolted direct to the bulkhead!). Anyway I cut a 8mm bolt shank down to around 8mm in length and drilled a 1.5mm hole in it (that is the smallest I
had) and pushed it in the return pipe, with a local jubilee clip to stop it moving, and the pump calmed down considerably :-).
Overall the whole system seems to work a lot better and was not expensive. No idea why I was getting the noisy inject pump before, however it seems
much happier with a primed system with a positive pressure input.
A handy tip I have learnt from a friend in the boat building business. When drilling stainless steel, make certain to centre punch before you start,
use small drill to start with and if you don't have any cooling liquid or you're drilling in a hard to access area, KY jelly or similar
"lubrication" cream makes for a very good drilling coolant ;-).
Can post pictures if anyone is interested though not that much is visible now as the rear moulding is back on.
Cheers
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Chris_Xtreme
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 11:58 AM |
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Alex - do you have a pic of the offside swirl pot fitting?
I ended up putting mine in the boot (as a rushed solution) but would love to get the boot space back to be able to put the side screens back in.
cheers - Chris
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AlexXtreme
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 12:24 PM |
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Hi Chris, I will try and take a picture of what I did.
Looking at the image on the link, I mounted it with the swirl pot pipe fittings pointing in-board. The pot is mounted as low as possible outboard and
I chamfered off the top fwd corner of the bracket to get it to fit a bit more snugly. The brackets are glued in place with a single bolt to be on the
safe side.
I carry the doors in the boot now again .... how do you stop them getting damaged??
Cheers
Alex
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