BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 05:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I do agree running it too rich will hurt power, that is true on most turbo engines, but the extra fuel gives you some insurance while you are getting
the timing right, going from 11 to 12 AFR will only gain you 5% power at a guess, but one day you mite get the engine abit hot (hot air temp) and
cause det. The sensible way to go is run 12 at low boost (5psi), more fuel at high boost.(15psi)
The optimum AFR to ignite the fuel is 11AFR, more or less fuel is harder to burn.
I had problems with the stock Hayabusa COPs, swapped to Ford coilpack and all was well, wouldnt be too much effort to swap from dyna to Ford? i know
the Ford coilpack is good to 14KRPM
I would run 9/10 plugs (nothing fancy) gapped at 0.8mm
would be very interested on how much power it makes, what are they stock?
Thanks again for your expert advice. It sounds like a good idea to aim for AFR of 11 whilst I get everything nice.
People drag these a fair amount so there are some silly numbers. But it seems that 250bhp at about 1atm should be reasonable, and matches the
Td04-16T power output in the Volvo T5R.
Stock power is rated at 150bhp (on carbs), but these figures are seen as optimistic by most even when new and this is a 1994 engine.
As you probably know these were used in sidecars and I am told (by a sidecar guy who also raced these extensively) that Steve Webster (serial world
champ) got 210-220bhp out of one (normally aspirated, but bored out, big valves, LCR's, etc etc).
At the moment I have wasted spark. So not sure how that would convert. I haven't got the end of my brick yet, so will try some of the ideas
from here which are mostly software before getting on e-bay!
Plugs were stock (9's), but I will try Iridium ones (as I have a set kicking around), and will check the gaping.
Thanks again,
Matt
Hi Matt,
If you are already using 2 bike coils (such as dyna) than you are running the same waisted spark setup as, say a Zetec.
The only difference been the bike coils are separate, the ford coilpack is 2 coils in 1 package. (coilpack)
The Ford coilpack has 3 connections, the center pin goes to ignition live (12v), the left pin to coil A (cylinders 1+4) the right pin to coil B
(cylinders 2 + 3) That it!
I know bike engines can be sensitive to ignition, i tried a pair of MSD6A boxes with GM coils on a Busa on the dyno and it gained 6BHP!
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 10:06 PM |
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Thanks, I didn't realise it was as simple as that.
When you mentioned Ford coils packs I started thinking of EDIS, and that was something that I didn't understand (or want to).
Are all Ford coilpacks with 3 leads made equal? What model of scrapper am I looking at? anything but Diesels?
I like the idea of this modification, as I can sell the Dyna for a few quid, and they are as heavy as hell.
Insulating my bonnet tonight, as I have been putting this off, and I don't want it to go up in fire.
Matt
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mikemph
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 10:11 PM |
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most fords of the mid 90s onwards I think..... but there are a 1st and 2nd generation of coil pack. Think it something to do with either the way the
leads attach or the plug used to connect to the loom. Make sure you cut the plug off the car you take it from and maybe the leads too if they are any
good.
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RichardK
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 10:35 PM |
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Think I might have a spare coilpack and plug going spare if you're interested?
u2u me if so.
Cheers
Rich
Gallery updated 11/01/2011
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 1/6/11 at 12:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mikemph
most fords of the mid 90s onwards I think..... but there are a 1st and 2nd generation of coil pack. Think it something to do with either the way the
leads attach or the plug used to connect to the loom. Make sure you cut the plug off the car you take it from and maybe the leads too if they are any
good.
I'd go for the GEN1 Ford coilpack from fiesta/escort OHV/CVH Efi/Zetec silvertop. Fiesta 1600 EFI leads (1992 i thing) have long spark plug
connectors that will fit directly into your bike engine plug holes.
You will need to adjust you dwell settings in megatune, 3.1 max dwell, 0.6 spark duration show be about right.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 7/6/11 at 10:41 PM |
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Thanks for these tips. I got a coil pack from Richard, and some new leads from e-bay (sometimes it makes sense to buy new), they arrived today and I
fitted it all together this evening and the car idles fine.
At the moment I am awaiting a last silicone hose bend and a few hose clips so that I can connect up the intercooler that I fitted at the weekend. Then
I can see if the coilpack fixes the problem. I have made a few other changes, too, so it isn't scientific.
The new leads look nice installed, much more factory than before (previously ignition leads were Yellow due to an e-bay error on my part!).
I have set the ignition timing to "standard dwell", "Maximum dwell=3.1ms, Acceleration compensation = 1ms, maximum spark duration =
0.6ms". The dwell time is greyed out (I guess Standard Dwell doesn't use it).
If any of these numbers look wrong then let me know (previously I had it on fixed duty cycle).
Thanks,
Matt
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 09:12 AM |
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Coilpack in place (thanks Richard)
Almost OEM, and way better than those yellow leads I had before!
Seems to rev up too (although quite a few changes in addition to the leads so can't be sure its the sparks).
Still a bit of tidying to do, but getting there now.
Thanks guys,
Matt
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adithorp
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 09:22 AM |
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Who are you and what have you done with Matt? You can't be him... this thread has got to 4 pages and he's not blown the engine up yet! 
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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mikemph
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 09:56 AM |
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Looks good...... how is it running now?
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 12:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Who are you and what have you done with Matt? You can't be him... this thread has got to 4 pages and he's not blown the engine up yet!
Thanks for your confidence! 
It is breathing very heavily at the moment (compression all over the place, as the barrels/pistons I got turned out to be junk), but I haven't
bothered mentioning that as I didn't want to upset anyone.
Rest assured, now the boost is under control I am going to implement "boost control" from Megasquirt, and soon after that I expect I will
be having to replace the engine with another from the shed.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 12:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mikemph
Looks good...... how is it running now?
I managed to get the revs to 11200rpm (rev limiter comes in at that point), and it seems to run nicer. Always difficult to tell when you make loads
of changes (plugs, fueling, coils, leads, etc).
I even think my tin-top runs better after I top up the washer fluid, so there is a massive placebo effect.
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 08:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Coilpack in place (thanks Richard)
Almost OEM, and way better than those yellow leads I had before!
Seems to rev up too (although quite a few changes in addition to the leads so can't be sure its the sparks).
Still a bit of tidying to do, but getting there now.
Thanks guys,
Matt
Hi Matt, not sure if you are aware but you dont seem to have the vac/boost pipe connected to the fuel regulator? you MUST have a pipe from the
regulator to the inlet plenum on a turbo engine (no need on NA) to raise the fuel pressure as the engine becomes on boost, otherwise fuel pressure
will effectively drop in relation to boost. The fuel pressure should remain 3bar above the boost, so if you are running 1 bar boost the fuel pressure
gauge will read 4bar. Off boost the fuel pressure will return to around 3bar.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 09:38 PM |
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Good spotting.
The non-connection of the pressure feed was a deliberate design decision.
Here was the logic.
+Engine is ITB, so the MAP pressure take-off is after the throttles. Hence the pressure changes very quickly.
Therefore I was concerned that the pressure regulator (and associated hoses) would not be able to track the pressure from the MAP.
+I have upped the pressure to 3.5bar, and have a 0.33bar spring on the wastegate. So fuel pressure difference should remain at or around 3bar.
+The ECU mapping (which uses the MAP sensor and TPS) will then look after the variable flow rate from the injectors that is due to MAP.
You know much more about this than me and I know this is standard when running a single big throttle body, so I am grateful for your advice and always
keen to learn. Have you had good results when mapping ITB turbo engines with the fuel pressure regulator after the ITBs. I am happy to connect this
up. This isn't the source of my previous problems, but I can see it becoming more of an issue once the boost is raised.
Matt
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 09:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Good spotting.
The non-connection of the pressure feed was a deliberate design decision.
Here was the logic.
+Engine is ITB, so the MAP pressure take-off is after the throttles. Hence the pressure changes very quickly.
Therefore I was concerned that the pressure regulator (and associated hoses) would not be able to track the pressure from the MAP.
+I have upped the pressure to 3.5bar, and have a 0.33bar spring on the wastegate. So fuel pressure difference should remain at or around 3bar.
+The ECU mapping (which uses the MAP sensor and TPS) will then look after the variable flow rate from the injectors that is due to MAP.
You know much more about this than me and I know this is standard when running a single big throttle body, so I am grateful for your advice and always
keen to learn. Have you had good results when mapping ITB turbo engines with the fuel pressure regulator after the ITBs. I am happy to connect this
up. This isn't the source of my previous problems, but I can see it becoming more of an issue once the boost is raised.
Matt
Hi Matt, are you using MS1 hybrid or MS2?
I would always connect the fuel regulator to the engine side of the throttles, i assume you have the MAP signal to the megasquirt connected to the
engine side? The standard bike setup normally has a small pipe from each throttle body, T'd together to form a common takeoff for a MAP sensor,
this is where the megasquirt MAP and FSE should be connected.
There will be very little vacuum at idle, but as all the vac takeoffs are plumbed together it will be relatively stable, as you are setup for hybrid
fueling you dont care about vacuum, only boost, the TPS will take care of off-boost fueling.
The ignition timing should only be controlled by the MAP, not TPS
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 10:16 PM |
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MS2 daughter card in an MS1 chassis (so MS2).
I am using the MAP as the primary load and TPS as secondary, with multiply MAP so as to help with dynamic range of values. Bit of a bugger to map
(the standard tools are not very good for blended), but I have a big computer at work and am using that, so I know I can do it. I have been told that
these engines can be mapped with Alpha-N and multiply MAP alone (which was interesting to me), by a guy who maps a few of these (although he
hasn't got a big computer like I do!).
Presently MAP sensor is connected up as you describe, with a small orifice and a fuel pressure filter at the MS end. The MAP is nice and stable.
I have found that MAP is actually pretty nice for idle fueling, the TPS does work (have tried it on gsxr600 and gsxr1000 bodies) but off idle the MAP
works nicer (in my limited experience). Presently running gsxr600 bodies and a stock (95) head (not the big valve sidecar monster that I have been
running).
I will connect up the pressure regulator as you have suggested. I wasn't sure but always keen to learn.
Regarding ignition mapping. I had previously used my stock TPS vs RPM based map (stock Suzuki on the gsf1250 which is a very similar engine), but
retarded it with boost by about 5deg at 8psi and 10deg at 16psi (for one day).
These set-ups with ITB and turbo are quite interesting. The airflow depends in a complicated way on MAP and TPS. I picked up some Skyline MAF just
in case I can't map it, but it doesn't seem to be too bad, just a bit wierd.
Matt
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 10:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
MS2 daughter card in an MS1 chassis (so MS2).
I am using the MAP as the primary load and TPS as secondary, with multiply MAP so as to help with dynamic range of values. Bit of a bugger to map
(the standard tools are not very good for blended), but I have a big computer at work and am using that, so I know I can do it. I have been told that
these engines can be mapped with Alpha-N and multiply MAP alone (which was interesting to me), by a guy who maps a few of these (although he
hasn't got a big computer like I do!).
Presently MAP sensor is connected up as you describe, with a small orifice and a fuel pressure filter at the MS end. The MAP is nice and stable.
I have found that MAP is actually pretty nice for idle fueling, the TPS does work (have tried it on gsxr600 and gsxr1000 bodies) but off idle the MAP
works nicer (in my limited experience). Presently running gsxr600 bodies and a stock (95) head (not the big valve sidecar monster that I have been
running).
I will connect up the pressure regulator as you have suggested. I wasn't sure but always keen to learn.
Regarding ignition mapping. I had previously used my stock TPS vs RPM based map (stock Suzuki on the gsf1250 which is a very similar engine), but
retarded it with boost by about 5deg at 8psi and 10deg at 16psi (for one day).
These set-ups with ITB and turbo are quite interesting. The airflow depends in a complicated way on MAP and TPS. I picked up some Skyline MAF just
in case I can't map it, but it doesn't seem to be too bad, just a bit wierd.
Matt
Would it be better to set the TPS as primary load and MAP for secondary for fueling as most of the time the engine is off-boost? I would only use MAP
for timing, not TPS.
You should think of it as an NA engine, maybe map it (TPS) with no boost, use the MAP table as boost correction, that way you dont really need any
acceleration enrichment ether.
where in the world are you? if you fancy a go on the rolling road
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 10/6/11 at 05:13 PM |
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I don't think it makes much difference which is primary and which is secondary for the load as it only multiplies the two.
Your logic for alpha-N with a bit of MAP correction is sound though. I think my MAP also does some correction for the lack of my rising rate pressure
(at the moment, I haven't swapped yet).
Interestingly I get boost from about 2700rpm, so I am boost quite a bit (given that the engine revs to 11k).
I am in Oxford so its 100miles to Telford, but once I get close I fancy bringing it over to get it fine tuned.
Matt
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 11/6/11 at 09:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
I don't think it makes much difference which is primary and which is secondary for the load as it only multiplies the two.
Your logic for alpha-N with a bit of MAP correction is sound though. I think my MAP also does some correction for the lack of my rising rate pressure
(at the moment, I haven't swapped yet).
Interestingly I get boost from about 2700rpm, so I am boost quite a bit (given that the engine revs to 11k).
I am in Oxford so its 100miles to Telford, but once I get close I fancy bringing it over to get it fine tuned.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Done some testing on my focus development car today (MS2), if you set primary load to Alpha N, and secondary load to Speed density, but select
additive instead of multiply, you can map the engine on Alpha N first. I entered all zeros in the second VE table (speed density), mapped on Alpha N
(VE table 1) then when back and mapped VE table 2 for boost correction.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 12/6/11 at 01:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi Matt,
Done some testing on my focus development car today (MS2), if you set primary load to Alpha N, and secondary load to Speed density, but select
additive instead of multiply, you can map the engine on Alpha N first. I entered all zeros in the second VE table (speed density), mapped on Alpha N
(VE table 1) then when back and mapped VE table 2 for boost correction.
Just trying to get my head around what you have said here.
So, is this on the road or on your rolling road? I will assume on the road.
Are you running the TunerStudio "auto-tune" to set up the Alpha-N.
And then using the "autotune" in MegaLogViewer to sort out the second VE (speed density).
Does focus have ITB's or a single throttle body.
Matt
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 12/6/11 at 02:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi Matt,
Done some testing on my focus development car today (MS2), if you set primary load to Alpha N, and secondary load to Speed density, but select
additive instead of multiply, you can map the engine on Alpha N first. I entered all zeros in the second VE table (speed density), mapped on Alpha N
(VE table 1) then when back and mapped VE table 2 for boost correction.
Just trying to get my head around what you have said here.
So, is this on the road or on your rolling road? I will assume on the road.
Are you running the TunerStudio "auto-tune" to set up the Alpha-N.
And then using the "autotune" in MegaLogViewer to sort out the second VE (speed density).
Does focus have ITB's or a single throttle body.
Matt
Hi matt,
The focus has a stock throttle body, i'm using the Ford TPS to map all off-boost engine load in Alpha N.
This is done in the first VE table, i have entered all "0" in the second VE table for the time been. (so it has no effect while mapping
the first VE table) The MAP sensor is connected to the engine side of the throttle (to see vac and boost)
When all engine revs and loads are mapped in Alpha N (NO boost, i have not fitted the turbo yet, you would need to wire open your wastegate) the speed
density map (VE table 2) can be mapped, assuming the vertical scale starts at around 20kpa most of the bottom half of the table will remain
zero's. Under boost the area in the table above 100kpa can be used to "add" fuel.
I am using code 2.1.0 on megatune, i have my own rolling road to play with!
Autotune will only help you if the VE table is 90% right, i never bother with it, causes more trouble than its worth!
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 12/6/11 at 07:33 PM |
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cool.
I already have an NA map as I used to run the engine NA (slightly different, but same intake), so could use that as a base.
TuneStudio (and MLV) autotune functions are actually pretty nice for most tuning. Without a rolling road it is impossible to hold load, so unless you
have a talented buddy in the passenger seat then the computerised method is a good alternative.
Thanks again for the tips.
Matt
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 26/6/11 at 07:24 PM |
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Just as an update. Fitted new ford coils, fitted Iridium plugs, gapped the plugs a bit tighter (20thou).
Problem persisted.
Looked more carefully at the logs and a few wierd things are happening.
Fueling PW go all over the place and not following Gve. Dopey me, I've left the fuel cut on in the AE and when given the beans the TPS is all
over the place. So its cutting fuel. I have been adding more and more fuel to compensate, so it goes super super rich. My LC-1 configuration is set
up to go from 10-20 and it has been nailed at the bottom of this range. At least it is now stable now that I have turned off the Fuel cut, and I can
get the engine to rev up if I choose an appropriate throttle position.
I think the missfires are messing with the temperature signals (it jumps around a bit).
Plan is to recalibrate the LC-1 output and MS2 input so it gives readings when super-rich (i.e. down to 8 or 9).
Cut the fuel a little.
And try again.
Must say though that the midrange it truly mighty even with a meagre 6psi of boost. I have wired up the boost controller, so might aim for a bit more
(9psi sounds like a nice number) and see what lets go first.
More as it happens,
Matt
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 26/6/11 at 09:49 PM |
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Fueling now sorted, which has moved the problem on a bit.
Now it runs powerfully to the stuttering point!
Seems like I have noise on my trigger wheel (LM1815N circuit with a 12-1 wheel).
I need to read up on filtering and earthing, I remember seeing something about a capacitor on the coils (which I don't have).
Some steps forward and some back.
Matt
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 27/6/11 at 07:29 AM |
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Basic question - ignore if you know this already...
Do you have screened cable on your VR sensor?
If so, have you only earthed the screening at one end only? If you earth both ends then it can form a loop that can actually make interference worse!
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 27/6/11 at 08:50 AM |
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David,
Good point.
I have used twin core shielded (microphone cable from maplins), it is earthed to the MS box. The box is earthed by being bolted down, the MS box
doesn't get an earth from the DB37.
The transistors for the Coils are bolted quite closely to the LM1815N (VR trigger wheel conditioning) circuit.
I did wear through the VR cable once (embarrassingly it wasn't tied down when I did some tests and rubbed) so I might not have reconnected up
the earthing.
Having read around, it seems that there is a capacitor on the coils that can be added (standard on Fords it seems) which might help. I am also
getting a bit of noise on my water temp sensor (which uses the cars earth) but not on the air temp sensor (which has its own earth).
I have run some trigger logs and the symptoms are dropped teeth, I think these correspond to ignition events. I am running the LM1815N as adaptive.
I am pretty confident that I can do a few things that will fix this, as it isn't that bad.
It seems difficult to know whether the spikes are due to missfires, or the missfires are due to the spikes, but the solution would seem to be to
check/rectify the earthing, sheild sensitive cables, keep offending cables apart, and add capacitance to anything that looks troublesome!
Matt
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