franky
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 06:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"We did the maths and worked out that based on having the extra cost on the mortgage we'd have to stay there for 20years with them
performing at 100% to get the money back"
Either they are an install that's worth nothing like £10k or, without wishing to be rude you've not done the maths correctly, or, more
likely you've not understood the ridiculous FIT which the governement is running - that's the only thing that makes it worthwhile, one
other possibility is that these are old installs which don't get anything like the same FIT.
Nev, all makes more sense now, so you're going for an indirect install then - otherwise the antifreeze will make your bath taste funny! 
Would the salt in brine not cause probs within anything ferrous in the system, or can you do it all in stainless & plastic (can't remember
if salt does anything with copper?).
Beauty of being an engineer is that you can work on & improve many different systems - not just cars etc!
The maths were done correctly, i'm not 100% sure of the spec but by the time you've added 25 years of interest on the 10K you can see why
it wasn't worth paying a premium. Basically it held no major fiscal advantage paying the extra.
However maybe we're not fully across the FIT's as much as we should be!
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JoelP
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 07:15 PM |
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Just to chuck my 2p in, i think its outrageous that the government is wasting money paying FITs, and subsidies on wind farms etc, just to meet green
targets. If the technology doesnt pay its own way, its not really benefiting us!
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russbost
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 08:01 PM |
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"The maths were done correctly, i'm not 100% sure of the spec but by the time you've added 25 years of interest on the 10K you can
see why it wasn't worth paying a premium. Basically it held no major fiscal advantage paying the extra.
However maybe we're not fully across the FIT's as much as we should be!"
If it's a £10k installation which is more than about 6 months old it would almost certainly be 3kW or a bit less, but even an installation that
size should produce an income (tax free) of at least £400 a year unless the install is facing the wrong way or is in some other way flawed (miles too
far North, heavily shaded etc.), not sure what mortgage rates are like now (I have an old one which is fortunately locked to base rate, so I pay a
stupidly low interest rate ) but with bank rates still at almost zero, surely you shouldn't be paying significantly over 4%, hence with a
significant saving, probs close on £100 on electricity you are probably at slightly better than break even point now - given that energy costs will
only go up I would still have thought it's a good investment!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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russbost
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 08:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Just to chuck my 2p in, i think its outrageous that the government is wasting money paying FITs, and subsidies on wind farms etc, just to meet green
targets. If the technology doesnt pay its own way, its not really benefiting us!
Joel, couldn't agree with you more, I'm not looking at doing it for "green" reasons (I'm not entirely sure what to
believe about pv solar panels, I have heard that their total lifetime output of power does not meet their power consumed in construction, absolutely
no idea of the truth of this!???), but unfortunately feel that if I don't get involved in this then I'm going to be one of the millions
that will indirectly be funding it!
Flat panel & evacuated tube solar hot water heating is however a whole different kettle of fish, as it's simple, cheap, non-polluting in
manufacter & can be DIY'ed, plus it can payback within around 24 months!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 08:15 PM |
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It's not a subsidy it's you selling your electricity.
Say you're at work on a glorious sunny day and those solar panels are at 100%. That energy isn't being used by your house cos
no-one's in so it gets sold to the national grid. The alternative would be a shedload of batteries keeping it all
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franky
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 08:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"The maths were done correctly, i'm not 100% sure of the spec but by the time you've added 25 years of interest on the 10K you can
see why it wasn't worth paying a premium. Basically it held no major fiscal advantage paying the extra.
However maybe we're not fully across the FIT's as much as we should be!"
If it's a £10k installation which is more than about 6 months old it would almost certainly be 3kW or a bit less, but even an installation that
size should produce an income (tax free) of at least £400 a year unless the install is facing the wrong way or is in some other way flawed (miles too
far North, heavily shaded etc.), not sure what mortgage rates are like now (I have an old one which is fortunately locked to base rate, so I pay a
stupidly low interest rate ) but with bank rates still at almost zero, surely you shouldn't be paying significantly over 4%, hence with a
significant saving, probs close on £100 on electricity you are probably at slightly better than break even point now - given that energy costs will
only go up I would still have thought it's a good investment!
Looking at 4.5% with rates only going to go up, i'm sure you can see though that its not a massive reason to buy one house over another.
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JoelP
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| posted on 5/10/11 at 08:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
It's not a subsidy it's you selling your electricity.
Say you're at work on a glorious sunny day and those solar panels are at 100%. That energy isn't being used by your house cos
no-one's in so it gets sold to the national grid. The alternative would be a shedload of batteries keeping it all
Not at all, it is a subsidy! At the simplest level, you buy power from the supply companies at say 10p per kWh, because that is the market value;
therefore, this is what it should be sold back for - less in fact, there should be a restocking fee! Yet the gov pays something like 4 times that for
it. Thats a subsidy, no different from scrappage scheme, or indeed no different from a council house - everyone else chipping in to get you
something.
Quite agree though russ, i dont blame anyone for doing it. But our government is smoking crack.
[Edited on 5/10/11 by JoelP]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 6/10/11 at 06:24 AM |
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I think everyone agrees that it is a madcap scheme but from a consumer's point of view it is Manna from Heaven and an opportunity that should
not be missed.
The Feed-In Tariff is set on the statute book by an Act of Parliament and is guaranteed for 25 years.
At the moment it stands at £0.43 for every kW produced irrespective of what is used.
It is index linked
Return on capital more than 10% per annum
Feed-in tariff paid by energy companies not the Government
They assume that you will use 50% of the power you generate and pay £0.3 per kW on the balance with no check.
You can use all the electricity you generate which, depending on lifestyle and use of equipment can reduce your bill.
I would regard any reduction on my electricity bill as a bonus. The big attraction is the return on the investment.
So, it is a sound investment, certainly better than having money in a Building Society although as has been said the capital is locked in for 6 or 7
years depending on the pay-back time.
Second, the energy companies are going to put up their prices to ease the pain of paying out the feed-in tariffs. So, those that haven't will
subsidise those that have.
What are the pitfalls?
It is a growth area like double glazing was many years ago and it has attracted cowboy installers and pressure salesmen
Shoddy installation of low quality panels
Reputable firms offer insurance to cover the liftetime of the system should they go under.
They will show you a league table of panel performance which illustrates the decay in output over time.
Surprisingly, Sanyo are not in the top 10. Top are Bosch and ZN Shine manufactured in Germany.
They will give references so that you can see the quality of their workmanship.
As far as moving house is concerned, I believe you can take your panels and feed-in tariff with you or leave the panels, have more fitted to your new
home and cointinue receiving the payments.
John
[Edited on 6/10/11 by John Bonnett]
[Edited on 6/10/11 by John Bonnett]
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 6/10/11 at 11:30 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
It's not a subsidy it's you selling your electricity.
Say you're at work on a glorious sunny day and those solar panels are at 100%. That energy isn't being used by your house cos
no-one's in so it gets sold to the national grid. The alternative would be a shedload of batteries keeping it all
That's right. The big con in all of this, is they pay you an extra 9p/unit on 10% of what you generate, because they reckon you
'export' that much to the grid. The converse is closer to truth. You use most of your metered electric at night, when the system is not
generating, and export most of it when you're not home during the day.
However, I have seen a 50% or more drop in incoming metered consumption. We are changing from on-demand gas hot water to electric/solar, to maximise
the benefits. But only because the hw boiler is near the end of its life and will need replacing soon. Also, I can cobble the solar/electric system
together myself.
We've changed our ways of doing things as well. Put a timer on the washing machine, so it runs during the day. Similar with dryer. And the oven
goes on in the afternoon to use the solar as well.
What has got me still a little perplexed, is where did they get the 43.3p/unit figure from? I can't find any info as to the source. My guess is
that the price of electricity will be that well before the end of the 25 years the scheme is to run, and nobody is telling us the truth on this point.
At present we pay about 20p/unit for the first couple of thousand, and 9p/unit for the rest. (the 20p portion covers standing charges)
So, based on my suspicions, electricity is going to more than double in price in less than 10 years time. You've all been warned.
Anyway, what you do yourselves is entirely your decision. What I have here is paying for itself well and truly. And in 5 years time when it has payed
for itself, at worst, it will be better than halving our electric bills, ignoring any FITS payments we continue getting.
Cheers,
Nev.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 6/10/11 at 12:25 PM |
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I agree with you Nev, the price of electricity will rise enormously over the next 25 years, for everyone. Once the system has paid for itself in 6 or
7 years, some of the income received from the feed-in tariff can go to paying the electricity bill. Those that don't have a PV system are going
to suffer more than those with one.
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plentywahalla
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| posted on 6/10/11 at 12:47 PM |
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I can see several fallacies in the scheme.
Firstly, it is only sustainable for the electricity companies whilst only a very small number or customers have PV installations. They are subsidising
the FIT by profits from the huge margins they make on power from conventional generators. As these go off-line as new stations are not being built,
they will be forced to revise the economics.
Secondly, I have seen quotes of 10% per annum return. This is assuming no depreciation in the installation. All electrical equipment has a service
life and these costs must be factored in. Real returns are likely to be less than 5%
Thirdly, Interest rates are set to rise. Spend your £12,000 on buying a 25 year fixed term annuity. You will get a higher return guaranteed ... and no
ugly junk on your roof.
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/11/11 at 08:31 PM |
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Apparently there is a consultation underway proposing to cap the FIT payments at 21p, which they estimate reduces the return to 4.5%. I think this
will probably ruin the whole PV industry to be honest, but its fair on everyone else at least. Only for new installs mind.
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hobbsy
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| posted on 1/11/11 at 10:05 PM |
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This is taking effect from 12th Dec for new installs only as you say. I'm hoping to get mine in before then but its going to be tight. Thought I
would have until April!
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Rod Ends
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 12:57 AM |
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Good
riddance to Rent-seekers
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hobbsy
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 02:45 AM |
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A fair bit of truth in that article but also a glaring error in that it isn't the taxpayer that funds the FITs but the energy companies (albeit
via increased bills for most customers)
There are so many other things that work in similar ways though - you can 't really cricitise people for doing their research and taking
advantage of schemes that are available to them. Not a very fair comparison but you could say that ISAs and their tax free status is funded by other
tax payers. Where do you draw the line?
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van cleef
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 06:55 AM |
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I fit solar panel's as part of my roofing work sub contracted into another company just fitting the actuall panel's and because of the FIT
being capped the customer's are now backing out at the last minute.Work on the solar panel work with the company I am currently working with has
now slashed by half because of the customer now taking longer to gain some of their money back they have invested into the panels
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 09:57 AM |
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Feed in Tariff levels have just been cut in Half confirmed yesterday, installations have to be completed by 12th Dec 2011 to receive current
levels.
The 32.9 pence received for installations above 4kw has been cut to 15.2 pence for example.
Looks like the bubble has burst for those who invested their time and money setting up solar PV companies.
The only reason to put them up now is to comply with planning requirements for new construction, most authorities require 10% renewable energy.
Think the domestic retro market will die very quickly.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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James
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 10:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
We've changed our ways of doing things as well. Put a timer on the washing machine, so it runs during the day. Similar with dryer. And the oven
goes on in the afternoon to use the solar as well.
Sorry to be off-topic and not wanting to teach you to suck eggs mate but please be careful of this! I used to happily leave the washing machine on at
night or when going out.
Then, one evening turned washing machine on before going to Thai boxing class. Happened to get my eyebrow split open and had to go to A&E so
wasn't home for 5 hours. Came home to find the downstairs full of steam, the washing machine still on after 5 hours and it had set itself to
boil wash, the front of it had got so hot it had melted and dropped off onto the floor. Inside was a shrunken brown mess of what had been my
girlfriends whitewash! So £250 for a new washer and about £200 in new clothes. 
I bought some fire alarms after that too!
Anyway, just don't want you to have a similar (or worse!) situation happen!
Cheers,
James
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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pajsh
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 01:07 PM |
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Our first 25 year endowment came up (short!!) in June this year and I was really thinking about this seriously with the monies realized.
My main concerns were the longevity of the panels and the stability of the companies selling them and I've found this thread very interesting.
My main reason for not jumping in back in the Summer was I am hoping my kids will be moving out soon and we can downsize to a smaller place in the
country. If not I would have gone ahead.
However, if the FIT's are going to halve then that's a different picture and I feel sorry for all the people who have a vested interest in
the sales of these systems. It must have been a real dark day when this news came out.
Trying to be positive, perhaps the initial FIT's were the Governments/Energy companies efforts to kick start the industry and hopefully with
more efficient panels and lower costs soon we may all be able to benefit from generating our own electricity.
I read this week that the UN predicts in only 20 years time we will need the resources of 2 earths to sustain our present levels of consumption so we
need to do something.
Not a pleasant thought.
[Edited on 2/11/11 by pajsh]
I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
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paulf
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| posted on 2/11/11 at 01:21 PM |
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There was a company in east Anglia on the news complaining about the fact that they would no longer get the 32p per unit for the field full of panels
that they had planned on installing to enable them to profit from all the electricity users that would then have to pay inflated prices for there
domestic electricity.They seemed to think they had a right to be paid a way over inflated price per unit for power generated by a couple of fields
full of panels, the feed in tariff was not designed for this and should be limited to domestic users only and then limited in value as the government
now seem to realise.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Feed in Tariff levels have just been cut in Half confirmed yesterday, installations have to be completed by 12th Dec 2011 to receive current
levels.
The 32.9 pence received for installations above 4kw has been cut to 15.2 pence for example.
Looks like the bubble has burst for those who invested their time and money setting up solar PV companies.
The only reason to put them up now is to comply with planning requirements for new construction, most authorities require 10% renewable energy.
Think the domestic retro market will die very quickly.
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cjwood23
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| posted on 3/11/11 at 01:05 PM |
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Interesting topic chaps, and some good discussion going on.
I think even with the reduction in the FIT it's still a pretty decent investment (if thats the right phrase?) if you can afford it.
Electricity prices are only going to go one way - and that's up - what ever you can do to save/reduce costs is going to be beneficial in the
long term.
We're moving house in the next couple of weeks, and if we have any spare cash I will probably look into this.
______________________
Chris
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franky
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| posted on 3/11/11 at 02:45 PM |
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I'm glad the FIT are being cut, they're effectively funded by everyone else with electricity who do not have solar panels.
The companies who set up on the band wagon are effectively get rich quick companies, yet again funded by you and me through increased power costs.
It's a shame it's taken this long for something to be done about it.
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hobbsy
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| posted on 3/11/11 at 04:26 PM |
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We are not the only country with a FIT scheme - there are similar schemes all over Europe and the RoW and some of these are even more attractive and
no doubt are being financed by EU money or similar. It's going to be interesting to see how all the targets we've signed up to are going
to be met as PV quite likely was going to play a large part it in and now it's going to go a lot more slowly.
Have no fear there will be some other energy company / tax payer funded scheme in order to force the change that is needed to meet the targets we are
signed up to. There will be people ready to take advantage whether that is for the right reasons or not depends on each scenario.
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