mr henderson
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:23 AM |
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Question about how motorbikes work
I'm currently working on a couple of BEC's and as I am not a bike-riding type of guy, I want to find out if there is a generally accepted
standard to do with the various safety interlocks.
For instance, I can see from the wiring diagrams that bikes don't start unless the gearbox is in neutral, but I'm not sure where the
sidestand and clutch comes into it. It appears that different bike manufacturers have different ways of achieving whatever it is that they are
achieving, but can someone tell me what that is?
John
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ReMan
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:27 AM |
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Same thing, just "safety interlocks" to stop you starting the engine unless the clutch is pulled in, OR in neutral, AND the sidestand is
not down.
Usually effected through the ignition control unit logic.
Is that what you're getting at?
[Edited on 7/2/09 by ReMan]
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mr henderson
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:30 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
Same thing, just "safety interlocks" to stop you starting the engine unless the clutch is pulled in, OR in neutral, AND the sidestand is
not down.
Usually effected through the ignition control unit logic.
Is that what you're getting at?
[Edited on 7/2/09 by ReMan]
Excellent. Now, what about if the engine was already running, and the sidestand was put down. Should the engine then stop?
John
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Guinness
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:31 AM |
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TBH I wired all of my safety interlocks so they were always "Safe".
That means I can start the car even if it isn't back in neutral, handy if you've stalled in 3rd and can't get it back into
neutral.
You won't be using a clutch pedal with a switch, and you won't have the side stand, so wire them permanently open / closed as
appropriate.
HTH
Mike
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Andy B
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:34 AM |
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Pretty much what reman said really - on most hondas its a simple earth circuit through the clutch, sidestand and neutral switch which incorporates a
diode, if the ecu doesnt get a path to earth it wont play. We normally just wire these 3 lines to a permanent earth on the race cars as the likelihood
of one of the drivers forgetting he is in gear and subsequently falling over because his sidestand is down is zero!! - although bearing in mind some
of the c##p in SVA/IVA I wouldnt be suprised if they have us fitting the sidestand to BECs soon!!
regards
Andy
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mr henderson
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:35 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Guinness
TBH I wired all of my safety interlocks so they were always "Safe".
That means I can start the car even if it isn't back in neutral, handy if you've stalled in 3rd and can't get it back into
neutral.
You won't be using a clutch pedal with a switch, and you won't have the side stand, so wire them permanently open / closed as
appropriate.
HTH
Mike
Thanks for the suggestions, but what I really want to know is how the original circuits were designed to operate. It's as much about wanting to
understand the wiring as about achieving a satisfactory result in the new installation
John
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coozer
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:39 AM |
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Its all designed to stop you lurching forward when you push the starter (in gear).
If you were standing at the side and thumbed the button it would fall off its stand and explode, plastic hand grenade!
On my old Z1000 it was a simple circuit breaker where as on my ZX9R it is a more complicated bunch of resisters that all have to be in the correct
'state' ie neutral, clutch in, stand up etc.
I took the sidestand sensor off my old Z simply by joining the wires down there, leaving the clutch as was. So regardless of neutral or not I had to
pull the clutch in.
On the ZX9R it was as simple as grounding the wire from the ECU to fool it.
IMO all these safety lockouts are not really needed in a car but if I was going down the BEC route I would leave the clutch one in so the pedal had to
be down to start it. Just my preference though. You can even wire it so the clutch is starter switch but that would only work in neutral.
Steve
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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ReMan
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 11:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Excellent. Now, what about if the engine was already running, and the sidestand was put down. Should the engine then stop?
John
Fools game though it may be, I occasionally have a bet on Saturday, if i'm short of something to spend my money and time on.
If this was my saturday bet I'd say yes the engine would stop.
Someone here must have a Bike engined Bike to prove it for sure? 
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Guinness
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 12:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Excellent. Now, what about if the engine was already running, and the sidestand was put down. Should the engine then stop?
John
Fools game though it may be, I occasionally have a bet on Saturday, if i'm short of something to spend my money and time on.
If this was my saturday bet I'd say yes the engine would stop.
Someone here must have a Bike engined Bike to prove it for sure?
I take your bet mate! I think the engine would keep running.
AFAIK they are wired so that:-
If the bike is on the side stand, you can start it, but only if it is in neutral, or the clutch is depressed.
If the bike is not on the side stand, you can start it if it is in neutral and / or the clutch is in.
Mike
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mr henderson
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 12:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Guinness
I take your bet mate! I think the engine would keep running.
AFAIK they are wired so that:-
If the bike is on the side stand, you can start it, but only if it is in neutral, or the clutch is depressed.
If the bike is not on the side stand, you can start it if it is in neutral and / or the clutch is in.
Mike
Those two states would appear to be, effectively, the same. IOW You can start it whether or not the side stand is down, as long as either the clutch
is in or it is in neutral?
John
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mark chandler
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 12:12 PM |
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My old fireblade:
Clutch out:
*Stand down, will idle and start in neutral
*Stand up, will idle and run in all gears, will only start in neutral
*Stand down in gear engine stops
Clutch in:
*Stand down, will idle and start in neutral.
*Stand up, will idle and run in all gears, will start in all gears
*Stand down in gear engine stops
So two levels of disablement, one is engine running, other is starter motor operation.
Regards Mark
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mr henderson
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 12:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
My old fireblade:
Clutch out:
*Stand down, will idle and start in neutral
*Stand up, will idle and run in all gears, will only start in neutral
*Stand down in gear engine stops
Clutch in:
*Stand down, will idle and start in neutral.
*Stand up, will idle and run in all gears, will start in all gears
*Stand down in gear engine stops
So two levels of disablement, one is engine running, other is starter motor operation.
Regards Mark
That explains a lot, thanks.
We must be almost getting to the point where a truth table could be drawn up
John
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iiyama
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 12:44 PM |
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My YZF600R was the same as Marks Fireblade.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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idl1975
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 01:24 PM |
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On any modern bike, sidestand down and gear selected = cut out. Clutch doesn't matter. Ignition will run with bike in neutral and sidestand
down.
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
Same thing, just "safety interlocks" to stop you starting the engine unless the clutch is pulled in, OR in neutral, AND the sidestand is
not down.
Usually effected through the ignition control unit logic.
Is that what you're getting at?
[Edited on 7/2/09 by ReMan]
Excellent. Now, what about if the engine was already running, and the sidestand was put down. Should the engine then stop?
John
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stevebubs
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 05:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
That explains a lot, thanks.
We must be almost getting to the point where a truth table could be drawn up
John
2 safety interlocks. One stops you starting the engine in a dangerous state (start protection), one prevents you from pulling away in a dangerous
state (engine kill)
Start protection prevents the starter motor from running
engine kill does just that - kills the engine
Start Protection
----------------
tilt ok, sidestand any, neutral, clutch any - starter enabled
tilt ok, sidestand any, not neutral, clutch in - starter enabled
tilt ok, sidestand any, not neutral, clutch out - starter disabled
tilt bad, sidestand any, neutral any, clutch any - starter disabled
Engine Kill
-----------
tilt ok, sidestand up, neutral any, clutch any - engine run
tilt ok, sidestand down, neutral, clutch any - engine run
tilt ok, sidestand down, not neutral, clutch any - engine kill
tilt bad, sidestand any, neutral any, clutch any - engine kill
edit: Just realised I've echoed Mark's post
[Edited on 7/2/09 by stevebubs]
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mr henderson
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 05:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
That explains a lot, thanks.
We must be almost getting to the point where a truth table could be drawn up
John
2 safety interlocks. One stops you starting the engine in a dangerous state (start protection), one prevents you from pulling away in a dangerous
state (engine kill)
Start protection prevents the starter motor from running
engine kill does just that - kills the engine
Start Protection
----------------
tilt ok, sidestand any, neutral, clutch any - starter enabled
tilt ok, sidestand any, not neutral, clutch in - starter enabled
tilt ok, sidestand any, not neutral, clutch out - starter disabled
tilt bad, sidestand any, neutral any, clutch any - starter disabled
Engine Kill
-----------
tilt ok, sidestand up, neutral any, clutch any - engine run
tilt ok, sidestand down, neutral, clutch any - engine run
tilt ok, sidestand down, not neutral, clutch any - engine kill
tilt bad, sidestand any, neutral any, clutch any - engine kill
edit: Just realised I've echoed Mark's post
[Edited on 7/2/09 by stevebubs]
Thanks for that. Would it be fair for me to sum that up by saying that
A)
if the tilt (or vehicle down) is bad then the engine is killed and the starter disabled, and
B)
furthermore that the starter can only operate if the gearbox is in neutral OR the clutch is in
C)
If the sidestand is lowered the engine will stop unless the gearbox is in neutral?
John
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:{THC}:YosamiteSam
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 07:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Guinness
quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Excellent. Now, what about if the engine was already running, and the sidestand was put down. Should the engine then stop?
John
Fools game though it may be, I occasionally have a bet on Saturday, if i'm short of something to spend my money and time on.
If this was my saturday bet I'd say yes the engine would stop.
Someone here must have a Bike engined Bike to prove it for sure?
I take your bet mate! I think the engine would keep running.
AFAIK they are wired so that:-
If the bike is on the side stand, you can start it, but only if it is in neutral, or the clutch is depressed.
If the bike is not on the side stand, you can start it if it is in neutral and / or the clutch is in.
Mike
the car wouldnt stop - the stand and clutch switches are wired to cut into the starter circuit - the ignition circuit has not been cut so it would
still run
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stevebubs
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 08:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
snip
Thanks for that. Would it be fair for me to sum that up by saying that
A)
if the tilt (or vehicle down) is bad then the engine is killed and the starter disabled, and
B)
furthermore that the starter can only operate if the gearbox is in neutral OR the clutch is in
C)
If the sidestand is lowered the engine will stop unless the gearbox is in neutral?
John
Sounds about right
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Meeerrrk
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| posted on 7/2/09 at 08:36 PM |
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you can use the side stand switch as a security device. The honda needs a diode as andy b says; so you can make a little connector with a diode in it.
remove it and the car will never start. nice, effective & simples
For Sale : 2008 Aries/Stuart Taylor Motorsport Locoblade (954 Blade)
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