Andrew Eales
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| posted on 21/7/14 at 09:09 PM |
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Duratec to MT75
Hi All,
I built my locost in 2006 with a pinto and an MT75 from a twin cam Granada.
After a long time lying in the garage "engine less" - (got a great offer on the pinto from a MK2 escort enthusiast) I have decided to
resurrect the machine.
I want to install a Duratec and have an engine.
I have 2 type 9's in the shed so was going to go down the bell house road, however the MT75 is in place with prop shaft and great gear change
position so really wanted to keep it. I have sourced another MT75 from a 2003 2.4 Mk6 RWD transit and it bolts straight onto the duratec, so both
boxes are at a specialist being made into one hybrid box. The Transit box has a different mounting set up.
My questions are as follows !
Has anyone else used this configuration and if so what problems arose ?
The starter recess will need enlarging to accept the nose of the duratec starter. The transit one is slightly different but I don't think it
will engage correctly.
What clutch and flywheel would be best in this set up ? I have a fiesta ST flywheel and clutch (and starter) on its way.
The transit has a hydraulic clutch (non concentric) which I hope to use.
Any transit gear box experts out there ?
Sorry for all the questions but this forum was a valuable source of info when I built the car back in 2006 so hope to benefit again !
Cheers All
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big_wasa
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 06:51 AM |
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Best to ask this chap.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=167545
Edit I see you already have 
[Edited on 22/7/14 by big_wasa]
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 06:53 AM |
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Have done so already ! - but cheers...
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hootsno1
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 07:32 AM |
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You will need 2.3 lpg transit box the gearing is not good for a car or you can buy the front part of the gearbox case and swap it to your mt75 box you
will need special tools for this I sent mine to road and race in Sevenoaks and had them swap it for me and had 1st gear changed as well
If a little hammer won't fix it get a bigger hammer
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JAMSTER
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 08:20 AM |
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or a late mx5 box
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 03:34 PM |
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Thanks for the reply.
Why does it have to be the LPG box ?
The box I have fits fine and its from a 2.4 TDDI RWD. Or am I overlooking something ?
Cheers
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 04:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Eales
Thanks for the reply.
Why does it have to be the LPG box ?
The box I have fits fine and its from a 2.4 TDDI RWD. Or am I overlooking something ?
Cheers
Even petrol M75's from passenger vehicles have ratios that don't really suit a Seven. The ratios in a Transit Diesel box will be truly
horrid. 1st will probably run out at below 25 mph and there will be huge holes in the rest of the ratios. The LPG box may be slightly better but will
still spoil your enjoyment of the car, once you have been in a Seven with good ratios you will never want to go back.
I currently have a BGH Type 9 box in my car. The ratios are superb for road use. I have a spare "Frankenstein" box that Steve Perks built
me from a diesel Granada box (knackered but only used the tail case), a 2.8 Sierra 4 x 4 HD box (used the main case and gears which were perfect) and
whist it was in bits he changed 1st gear to one more suited to a Seven. For under £500 I have a box with the following ratios:
1st 2.72:1
2nd 1.81:1
3rd 1.26:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.82:1
Think carefully before you fit a gearbox that spoils the car.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 07:22 PM |
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Thanks for that.
As I mentioned in the original post I am using the MT75 innards from the gearbox I originally had in the car (attached to a pinto).
The gearbox was from a twin cam 8V sierra.
Its just the bell housing and front casing from the transit that I intend to use. Although I was under the impression that it was the final drive that
reduced the ratio's for the transit vans.
Anyhow - I do have 2 type 9's from SOHC sierra's and the ratio's on those are very similar to the MT's.
When I had the Pinto in it I don't recall thinking the ratio's were rubbish hence my decision to keep it. - If I can - if it all
go's together.
Andrew..
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 23/7/14 at 08:20 AM |
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As far as I am aware ratios from an 8V DOHC are:
1st 3.89:1
2nd 2.08:1
3rd 1.34:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.82:1
16V DOHC are:
1st 3.61:1
2nd 2.08:1
3rd 1.44:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.83:1
Don't know exactly which you are intending to put in the Tranny casing but neither are great.
The standard Type 9 4 cylinder petrol is not great either,
1st 3.62:1
2nd 1.97:1
3rd 1.37:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.82:1
The type 9 from a V6 is way better.
1st 3.36:1
2nd 1.81:1
3rd 1.26:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.83:1
In truth its only issue in a Seven is the short 1st gear. Change that like Steve Perks has done in my spare box and its as near perfect as you will
find. I ran an early BGH box based on the V6 ratios back in the 90's and only changed to the current BGH box when it started with an horrendous
resonance after a rebuild (it was fine before). BGH could not fix it and PX'd it for one of his later boxes. The ratios in that box are
theoretically better but on the road the differences are so small you would never notice on the road. That is why I got my spare box built by Steve
Perks at a fraction of the cost of a BGH.
My original BGH gearbox
1st 2.83:1
2nd 1.81:1
3rd 1.26:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.82:1
My current BGH has the following ratios and would cost £1385 + VAT exchange to buy today:
1st 2.66:1
2nd 1.76:1
3rd 1.26:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.83:1
MY spare SPC box has the following ratios and cost me about £500. The diesel donor for the tailcase was £25, the XR4x4 box was £35, SPC 2st gear kit
was £225, labour was £150 and sundries were about another £100. Add in some diesel for collecting the bits and lets say the total was £580. I sold the
alloy V6 bellhousing off the XR4 x 4 for £75 on E-Bay for £75. Total was like I say, about £500.
1st 2.72:1
2nd 1.81:1
3rd 1.26:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.82:1
A mate with an MT75 in his Seven had a brief drive in my Seven when it was fitted with the original BGH box. The next day he went down to SPC and
ordered one of his 4 cylinder Type 9's with a long first. From memory the ratios were:
1st 2.97:1
2nd 1.97:1
3rd 1.37:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.82:1
He was over the moon. The much improved 1st gear and slightly improved 2nd made vast improvements to the way the car drove.
Remember that the only reason a road car has such a short first gear is the need to tow a trailer up a 1 in 6, you will never do that in a Seven.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 23/7/14 at 08:01 PM |
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Thanks for all the info.
I think I will get it back on the road with the standard ratios, then as soon as I have financially recovered, I'll look into changing the first
gear !
Still waiting for the hybrid box to return from the engineers, and still facing having to 'notch' it to get the starter to fit as no other
options have appeared.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 12:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Eales
I think I will get it back on the road with the standard ratios, then as soon as I have financially recovered, I'll look into changing the first
gear
There is the problem. No company makes a modified 1st gear for the MT 75. The only gear kits available are the ultra expensive Ford Motorsport
ones.
There is an option for a different 5th gear but not a different 1st.
That is why the Type 9 is still very popular and ever more expensive to buy. There are lots of strait cut sets available plus the kits that simply
change 1st gear.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 05:26 PM |
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See 9 posts above ! ......
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 09:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Eales
See 9 posts above ! ......
As per 9 post above
"You will need 2.3 lpg transit box the gearing is not good for a car or you can buy the front part of the gearbox case and swap it to your
mt75 box you will need special tools for this I sent mine to road and race in Sevenoaks and had them swap it for me and had 1st gear changed as well
"
I have just spoke to Road and Race and they tell me there are no different 1st gear ratios available for the MT75. Plenty available for the Type 9.
They have done some hybrid things with MT75's similar to what you are proposing but have never changed 1st gear on its own.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 12:38 PM |
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Oh dear, better keep hold of the type 9's then.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 4/8/14 at 07:18 AM |
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So - in the meantime the hybrid MT75 gearbox is ready.
When I picked it up the input shaft would not turn. I asked the engineer about it and he said "It will be on the Syncro - should be
fine"
Now I know what the syncro does (certainly not how it does it though), and being a reputable transmission company I head off home with the box.
I've since had it mounted in the car (engine less) and I can select gears fine, sounds and feels correct, but when rocking car back and forward
the box still stuck solid.
Should it free off as the power goes to it via the clutch or could it be genuinely jammed ??
Help !
I should point out the gearbox has no oil in it at the moment - if that makes a difference ?
[Edited on 4/8/14 by Andrew Eales]
[Edited on 4/8/14 by Andrew Eales]
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wylliezx9r
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| posted on 4/8/14 at 07:26 AM |
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Not being funny BUT......why not just pick up a mk3 mx5 box ? Bolt straight up and can be had for £300 ?
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
George Best
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 4/8/14 at 07:34 AM |
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Well to be honest I am beginning to wish I did !
The reason I wanted to use the MT was, it was already mounted in the car (originally to a pinto) with a good driveshaft, and I was attempting to avoid
having to change the mount and have a new driveshaft made. I have a couple of type 9's in the shed, but no driveshafts.
I'm now £250 in to the MT75 hybrid, and am at the point of binning it, if indeed the box is jammed, hence the question to any gearbox gurus !
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 4/8/14 at 08:08 AM |
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With the gearbox in neutral the input and output shafts should turn independently. If it doesn't it has a serious issue.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 4/8/14 at 08:48 AM |
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Thats kind of what I thought to !
Back to the engineers then !
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 7/8/14 at 08:47 PM |
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So thats the gearbox back and all rotating nicely !
I've notched out a wee gap for the starter motor nose, so thats another job done.
Next issue is the clutch.
I'm using an ST150 flywheel so the mondeo clutch is no use. I also have the ST150 clutch but the friction plate spline is too small, so thats no
use. I also have a clutch from an 8valve twin cam, but that doesn't fit the flywheel so thats no use !
Looking at all the relevant posts, it would seem that an early 220mm mondeo clutch would work (mk1 and mk2 I believe).
I mocked up the engine, gear box, ST flywheel and clutch (less friction plate) to see how the hydraulic actuator would work.
I hope to use the transit system which is non concentric with a slave cylinder pushing on an actuation fork.
it looks like when I fit the slave it is just shy of the fork. Now I reckon it should compress by at least 10-12mm in order for it to release the
plate so the question is - Does this sound about right ?
should I get an early clutch from a mondeo or a 220mm friction plate and use the ST150 pressure plate (is this possible) ?
I had the very same "gap issue" with this gearbox and the pinto.
I resoled it by picking up another clutch fork (lying on the ground at the scrappies) cutting it up and welding it back on the original fork piggy
back style, to raise the bearing by about 12mm.
Before I rush off and spend more dollars on a clutch, am I on the right track ??
Thanks again.
Andrew
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 13/8/14 at 09:47 PM |
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Got a clutch from a MK1 mondeo 1.8 petrol.
Its 220mm with the correct 23 spline centre, so will go straight on as replacement for the ST150 one.
Still struggling a bit with the clutch release bearing. The method I used before was to weld two MT75 clutch forks together to get the extra height,
so I thought I would do the same again. Got the correct gap OK by using 1" box between the two forks however this raised the bearing so much it
would be off the guide when at full travel.
Back to the drawing board.
Acquired a CCT133 (long) bearing which has a different fitting than the transit, and the MT75 clutch fork so went on the hunt for a sierra clutch fork
which was donated by my good friends at "retro-sport".
hope to get one good one from cutting up portions of all 3 at the weekend.
In the meantime I finished the conversion to hydraulic clutch using parts from the transit pedal box I got the gearbox from. While at it I used the
transit brake pedal to get some more leverage on the brake master cylinder. This should make the brakes a bit less effort.
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Andrew Eales
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| posted on 23/3/16 at 04:01 PM |
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Finally - All finished...
Duratec with hybrid MT75, ready for the summer.
Just got an insurance quote for £97 fully comp so its off to the MOT station next week and ready for the summer.
I need to fit an oil cooler for track use, so it will be just for the road this Summer and a little project for the Winter.
All went well in the end except for a hiccup with the mech thermostat as it turned out the one I had bought from Caterham was the 97 degree one but
the ECU was wanting the 88 (i think ish) one so the fan was permanently coming one and the engine temp constantly cycling. All fixed now and ready to
go.
Overall I'm glad I stuck with the MT75 as it saved changing the prop shaft and gearbox mounts, and I know the box I have is a good one. the gear
change is nice and positive and sits where I want it, thanks to the easily extendable mechanism.
So far I have just been to the bottom of the drive and back up (about 1/2 a mile ) as no MOT but the engine feels strong and revs well. the brakes are
rubbish as the car has been stored for the last 6 yrs so corrosion on the discs. If this doesnt clear on the way to the MOT station it may be a case
of new pads and discs but that won't brake the bank as standard cortina ones.
Enjoy the Summer, I know I will.
Since having kids we have given up the motorcycles, so this is as near as I can get to one !!
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threadbare wallet
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| posted on 24/3/16 at 06:21 AM |
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Great result well done!
Very few things are "really" needed.
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