Printable Version | Subscribe | Add to Favourites
New Topic New Poll New Reply
Author: Subject: throttle body sizing?
blakep82

posted on 26/9/14 at 12:27 PM Reply With Quote
throttle body sizing?

So, converting to efi from bike carbs, which is mainly driven by finding parts which make the swap easy andcheap, rather than maximum power potential (just need this running first, can refine it later)

Hopefully Dale bailey performance will see this, but I'd like to open this to everyone too
I was originally going with 40mm zx9r carbs so got a manifold made to suit. Couldnt stop them leaking fuel due to the angle they had to sit at, so efi had to be the way forward.
So manifold is limited to 40mm just now, itbs ive found that fit, spaced well, and cheap are also 40mm

Looking at bailey performance facebook page, theres a duratec which had 40mm bodies, but dale says duratecs really need 45mm minimum. I see that as a future upgrade for me though, get it running first, upgrade power with bigger bodies and manifold when it starts getting too slow for me!

Heres the thing though, 4 itbs, 40mm, total venturi area, 20,105mm2
The ecotecs oringinal single throttle body, 61mm, area 11,309mm2 making 136bhp.
Do I really need bigger? Or am I missing some throttle body basics here?





________________________

IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083

don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
daviep

posted on 26/9/14 at 12:37 PM Reply With Quote
You're basically correct but your areas are both to large by a factor of 4. Area = pi x r2 or (pi x d2)/4

Cheers
Davie





“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
blakep82

posted on 26/9/14 at 12:45 PM Reply With Quote
Aw, yore right, 20x20x3.14, not 40x40 lol
I thought it seemed a lot, but basically enough to know the itbs are near double the area of the original, so should still offer significant gains over the original then?

[Edited on 26/9/14 by blakep82]





________________________

IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083

don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
MikeRJ

posted on 26/9/14 at 01:44 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Heres the thing though, 4 itbs, 40mm, total venturi area, 20,105mm2
The ecotecs oringinal single throttle body, 61mm, area 11,309mm2 making 136bhp.
Do I really need bigger? Or am I missing some throttle body basics here?


The thing you are missing is that a plenum averages out the airflow demands from the cylinders, so you get a relatively steady flow of air though the throttle body.

When you use ITB's you have minimal volume between the valve and the throttle, so the throttle body has to cope with the peak air flow for the cylinder, which is MUCH higher than the average airflow.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
davidimurray

posted on 26/9/14 at 01:49 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
So, converting to efi from bike carbs, which is mainly driven by finding parts which make the swap easy andcheap, rather than maximum power potential (just need this running first, can refine it later)

Hopefully Dale bailey performance will see this, but I'd like to open this to everyone too
I was originally going with 40mm zx9r carbs so got a manifold made to suit. Couldnt stop them leaking fuel due to the angle they had to sit at, so efi had to be the way forward.
So manifold is limited to 40mm just now, itbs ive found that fit, spaced well, and cheap are also 40mm

Looking at bailey performance facebook page, theres a duratec which had 40mm bodies, but dale says duratecs really need 45mm minimum. I see that as a future upgrade for me though, get it running first, upgrade power with bigger bodies and manifold when it starts getting too slow for me!

Heres the thing though, 4 itbs, 40mm, total venturi area, 20,105mm2
The ecotecs oringinal single throttle body, 61mm, area 11,309mm2 making 136bhp.
Do I really need bigger? Or am I missing some throttle body basics here?


Some good info here - http://www.jenvey.co.uk/jenvey/throttle-body-selection-with-jenvey-dy namics

What was the issue with the ZX9R carbs - what angle were you trying to mount them at?





Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
Gallery 3 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.440671625324.232627.601005324&l=3f0d42c523
Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
BaileyPerformance

posted on 26/9/14 at 04:40 PM Reply With Quote
Hi Blake,

An engine with a single throttle body, like most cars, feeds all 4 cylinders. An engine with 4 individual throttle has one per cylinder - but remember only one (well, one and abit) cylinders are drawing air at a time. So, in fact the common plenum with a single large throttle appears to have the edge over 4 smaller throttles. You cant just add up the airflow capability of 4 throttles and compare to the single throttle, its more like one throttle of the set of 4 compared to the single throttle.

The performance increase normally seen with individual throttle bodes is more to do with the direct airflow path allowing the engine to breathe at higher RPM, the more direct path to the valve the better as the engine does not need to suck as hard, quicker cylinder filling means more complete fill at high RPM.

The duratec has a large inlet port as standard, so seems to respond better to larger throttle bodies. The good thing about fuel injection is its more forgiving that carbs if you go too big on throttle size, carbs rely on vacuum across the jet to get the fuel, injection does not.

We have always opted for 45mm Jenveys on any 2.0L engine, regardless of tune, but would opt for 40 DCOEs (if customer wanted carbs) if the engine was stock, 45s if tuned as over carbing a stock engine can affect drivablity.

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
blakep82

posted on 26/9/14 at 05:25 PM Reply With Quote
That all makes sense! I knew that only 1 cylinder would be taking in air at a time, but kinda forgot when thinking about it, so of course it is slightly smaller.
Thank you for the link David, been having a good read though. My current set of parts doesn't seem too far off!

Thank you Dale! I was just having a read back through some of your emails to remind myself of a few things, there you mentioned 40mm should be fine for a stock engine to start with. Need the car working, upgrades can happen later!

I've got cbr929 itbs fitted, and respaced, they only needed spacing 3mm, so the linkage still works properly.
Work is starting on a swirl pot, and the wiring for the rest is ongoing! Ive got a catalyst sorted, and crank & temp sensor sorted.
Still need to look at the fuel lines. You mentioned the supply needs to 12mm? How critical is that? My tank is 10mm just now, does the whole supply need to be 12mm, or just from the injection pump?

I'm planning on a swirl pot in the engine bay so I can reduce the high pressure line length

Description
Description


they might be upside down actually. the fuel rail might fit better if they were the other way up

[Edited on 26/9/14 by blakep82]





________________________

IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083

don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
BaileyPerformance

posted on 26/9/14 at 08:42 PM Reply With Quote
Hi Blake,

The feed to the high pressure pump needs to be 12mm bore, the feed to the swirl pot (from the low pressure pump) can be 8mm, so can the feed and return from the engine.

Looking at your picture, I suggest you angle your throttle bodies at the same angle as the inlet port, you've got a nasty sharp bend in the manifold which will really hurt power.

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
blakep82

posted on 26/9/14 at 08:59 PM Reply With Quote
thats good news on the tank to swirl pot line! means that can stay as it is

i know what you mean about the bend in the inlet. thats a throwback to the carbs, where it was the only way they would fit so i had to design it that way. the inside of the runners is smooth and rounded though, so no sharp corners inside. again, that kinda comes back to what i was saying before (and what you suggested in an email) concentrate on getting it working with minimum fuss for now, and future upgrades will include bigger throttle bodies (if required) and a new manifold made specifically for them.
if i went for maximum power now, where do i go when i get bored of it? right now i just need it done, IVA, and refine later





________________________

IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083

don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
MikeRJ

posted on 26/9/14 at 09:53 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Looking at your picture, I suggest you angle your throttle bodies at the same angle as the inlet port, you've got a nasty sharp bend in the manifold which will really hurt power.


Definately. Bike throttle bodies and restrictive manifolds with sharp bends seem to go hand in hand for some reason.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Dusty

posted on 26/9/14 at 10:29 PM Reply With Quote
Can you mount the bodies the other way up. Then the injectors will pretty much spray down the manifold rather than across it as at present. Have to say I'm not keen on the manifold overall.
View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
BaileyPerformance

posted on 27/9/14 at 09:15 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
thats good news on the tank to swirl pot line! means that can stay as it is

i know what you mean about the bend in the inlet. thats a throwback to the carbs, where it was the only way they would fit so i had to design it that way. the inside of the runners is smooth and rounded though, so no sharp corners inside. again, that kinda comes back to what i was saying before (and what you suggested in an email) concentrate on getting it working with minimum fuss for now, and future upgrades will include bigger throttle bodies (if required) and a new manifold made specifically for them.
if i went for maximum power now, where do i go when i get bored of it? right now i just need it done, IVA, and refine later


Yep, i did suggest the why forward was just to get it running - but to mod the inlet not is not a big job? that why you can get your air filter sorted once without having to look at it again.

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
baz-R

posted on 4/10/14 at 02:36 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi Blake,

An engine with a single throttle body, like most cars, feeds all 4 cylinders. An engine with 4 individual throttle has one per cylinder - but remember only one (well, one and abit) cylinders are drawing air at a time. So, in fact the common plenum with a single large throttle appears to have the edge over 4 smaller throttles. You cant just add up the airflow capability of 4 throttles and compare to the single throttle, its more like one throttle of the set of 4 compared to the single throttle.

The performance increase normally seen with individual throttle bodes is more to do with the direct airflow path allowing the engine to breathe at higher RPM, the more direct path to the valve the better as the engine does not need to suck as hard, quicker cylinder filling means more complete fill at high RPM.

The duratec has a large inlet port as standard, so seems to respond better to larger throttle bodies. The good thing about fuel injection is its more forgiving that carbs if you go too big on throttle size, carbs rely on vacuum across the jet to get the fuel, injection does not.

We have always opted for 45mm Jenveys on any 2.0L engine, regardless of tune, but would opt for 40 DCOEs (if customer wanted carbs) if the engine was stock, 45s if tuned as over carbing a stock engine can affect drivablity.


i have slightly over size bodies on my car and there is a problem with driverbility its to do with throttle angle required under light loads and road use

over size throttles need only very low amounts of throttle angle to produce the same airflow so you have to be very ginger with the throttle where as a right size will give you a more linier throttle operation.
in data logs im getting above 90%baro between 16-25% throttle opening above 3k i do get 165+ bhp out of a fairly stock 1.8 zetec mind (only cams) the last 20% throttle has not mutch effect to required fuel or power output.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member

New Topic New Poll New Reply


go to top






Website design and SEO by Studio Montage

All content © 2001-16 LocostBuilders. Reproduction prohibited
Opinions expressed in public posts are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
the views of other users or any member of the LocostBuilders team.
Running XMB 1.8 Partagium [© 2002 XMB Group] on Apache under CentOS Linux
Founded, built and operated by ChrisW.