blakep82
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posted on 26/9/14 at 12:27 PM |
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throttle body sizing?
So, converting to efi from bike carbs, which is mainly driven by finding parts which make the swap easy andcheap, rather than maximum power potential
(just need this running first, can refine it later)
Hopefully Dale bailey performance will see this, but I'd like to open this to everyone too
I was originally going with 40mm zx9r carbs so got a manifold made to suit. Couldnt stop them leaking fuel due to the angle they had to sit at, so efi
had to be the way forward.
So manifold is limited to 40mm just now, itbs ive found that fit, spaced well, and cheap are also 40mm
Looking at bailey performance facebook page, theres a duratec which had 40mm bodies, but dale says duratecs really need 45mm minimum. I see that as a
future upgrade for me though, get it running first, upgrade power with bigger bodies and manifold when it starts getting too slow for me!
Heres the thing though, 4 itbs, 40mm, total venturi area, 20,105mm2
The ecotecs oringinal single throttle body, 61mm, area 11,309mm2 making 136bhp.
Do I really need bigger? Or am I missing some throttle body basics here?
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daviep
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posted on 26/9/14 at 12:37 PM |
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You're basically correct but your areas are both to large by a factor of 4. Area = pi x r2 or (pi x d2)/4
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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blakep82
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posted on 26/9/14 at 12:45 PM |
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Aw, yore right, 20x20x3.14, not 40x40 lol
I thought it seemed a lot, but basically enough to know the itbs are near double the area of the original, so should still offer significant gains
over the original then?
[Edited on 26/9/14 by blakep82]
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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MikeRJ
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posted on 26/9/14 at 01:44 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by blakep82
Heres the thing though, 4 itbs, 40mm, total venturi area, 20,105mm2
The ecotecs oringinal single throttle body, 61mm, area 11,309mm2 making 136bhp.
Do I really need bigger? Or am I missing some throttle body basics here?
The thing you are missing is that a plenum averages out the airflow demands from the cylinders, so you get a relatively steady flow of air though the
throttle body.
When you use ITB's you have minimal volume between the valve and the throttle, so the throttle body has to cope with the peak air flow for the
cylinder, which is MUCH higher than the average airflow.
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davidimurray
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posted on 26/9/14 at 01:49 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by blakep82
So, converting to efi from bike carbs, which is mainly driven by finding parts which make the swap easy andcheap, rather than maximum power potential
(just need this running first, can refine it later)
Hopefully Dale bailey performance will see this, but I'd like to open this to everyone too
I was originally going with 40mm zx9r carbs so got a manifold made to suit. Couldnt stop them leaking fuel due to the angle they had to sit at, so efi
had to be the way forward.
So manifold is limited to 40mm just now, itbs ive found that fit, spaced well, and cheap are also 40mm
Looking at bailey performance facebook page, theres a duratec which had 40mm bodies, but dale says duratecs really need 45mm minimum. I see that as a
future upgrade for me though, get it running first, upgrade power with bigger bodies and manifold when it starts getting too slow for me!
Heres the thing though, 4 itbs, 40mm, total venturi area, 20,105mm2
The ecotecs oringinal single throttle body, 61mm, area 11,309mm2 making 136bhp.
Do I really need bigger? Or am I missing some throttle body basics here?
Some good info here -
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/jenvey/throttle-body-selection-with-jenvey-dy
namics
What was the issue with the ZX9R carbs - what angle were you trying to mount them at?
Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
Gallery 3 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.440671625324.232627.601005324&l=3f0d42c523
Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f
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BaileyPerformance
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posted on 26/9/14 at 04:40 PM |
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Hi Blake,
An engine with a single throttle body, like most cars, feeds all 4 cylinders. An engine with 4 individual throttle has one per cylinder - but remember
only one (well, one and abit) cylinders are drawing air at a time. So, in fact the common plenum with a single large throttle appears to have the edge
over 4 smaller throttles. You cant just add up the airflow capability of 4 throttles and compare to the single throttle, its more like one throttle of
the set of 4 compared to the single throttle.
The performance increase normally seen with individual throttle bodes is more to do with the direct airflow path allowing the engine to breathe at
higher RPM, the more direct path to the valve the better as the engine does not need to suck as hard, quicker cylinder filling means more complete
fill at high RPM.
The duratec has a large inlet port as standard, so seems to respond better to larger throttle bodies. The good thing about fuel injection is its more
forgiving that carbs if you go too big on throttle size, carbs rely on vacuum across the jet to get the fuel, injection does not.
We have always opted for 45mm Jenveys on any 2.0L engine, regardless of tune, but would opt for 40 DCOEs (if customer wanted carbs) if the engine was
stock, 45s if tuned as over carbing a stock engine can affect drivablity.
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blakep82
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posted on 26/9/14 at 05:25 PM |
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That all makes sense! I knew that only 1 cylinder would be taking in air at a time, but kinda forgot when thinking about it, so of course it is
slightly smaller.
Thank you for the link David, been having a good read though. My current set of parts doesn't seem too far off!
Thank you Dale! I was just having a read back through some of your emails to remind myself of a few things, there you mentioned 40mm should be fine
for a stock engine to start with. Need the car working, upgrades can happen later!
I've got cbr929 itbs fitted, and respaced, they only needed spacing 3mm, so the linkage still works properly.
Work is starting on a swirl pot, and the wiring for the rest is ongoing! Ive got a catalyst sorted, and crank & temp sensor sorted.
Still need to look at the fuel lines. You mentioned the supply needs to 12mm? How critical is that? My tank is 10mm just now, does the whole supply
need to be 12mm, or just from the injection pump?
I'm planning on a swirl pot in the engine bay so I can reduce the high pressure line length
Description
they might be upside down actually. the fuel rail might fit better if they were the other way up
[Edited on 26/9/14 by blakep82]
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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BaileyPerformance
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posted on 26/9/14 at 08:42 PM |
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Hi Blake,
The feed to the high pressure pump needs to be 12mm bore, the feed to the swirl pot (from the low pressure pump) can be 8mm, so can the feed and
return from the engine.
Looking at your picture, I suggest you angle your throttle bodies at the same angle as the inlet port, you've got a nasty sharp bend in the
manifold which will really hurt power.
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blakep82
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posted on 26/9/14 at 08:59 PM |
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thats good news on the tank to swirl pot line! means that can stay as it is
i know what you mean about the bend in the inlet. thats a throwback to the carbs, where it was the only way they would fit so i had to design it that
way. the inside of the runners is smooth and rounded though, so no sharp corners inside. again, that kinda comes back to what i was saying before (and
what you suggested in an email) concentrate on getting it working with minimum fuss for now, and future upgrades will include bigger throttle bodies
(if required) and a new manifold made specifically for them.
if i went for maximum power now, where do i go when i get bored of it? right now i just need it done, IVA, and refine later
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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MikeRJ
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posted on 26/9/14 at 09:53 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Looking at your picture, I suggest you angle your throttle bodies at the same angle as the inlet port, you've got a nasty sharp bend in the
manifold which will really hurt power.
Definately. Bike throttle bodies and restrictive manifolds with sharp bends seem to go hand in hand for some reason.
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Dusty
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posted on 26/9/14 at 10:29 PM |
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Can you mount the bodies the other way up. Then the injectors will pretty much spray down the manifold rather than across it as at present. Have to
say I'm not keen on the manifold overall.
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BaileyPerformance
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posted on 27/9/14 at 09:15 AM |
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quote: Originally posted by blakep82
thats good news on the tank to swirl pot line! means that can stay as it is
i know what you mean about the bend in the inlet. thats a throwback to the carbs, where it was the only way they would fit so i had to design it that
way. the inside of the runners is smooth and rounded though, so no sharp corners inside. again, that kinda comes back to what i was saying before (and
what you suggested in an email) concentrate on getting it working with minimum fuss for now, and future upgrades will include bigger throttle bodies
(if required) and a new manifold made specifically for them.
if i went for maximum power now, where do i go when i get bored of it? right now i just need it done, IVA, and refine later
Yep, i did suggest the why forward was just to get it running - but to mod the inlet not is not a big job? that why you can get your air filter sorted
once without having to look at it again.
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baz-R
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posted on 4/10/14 at 02:36 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Hi Blake,
An engine with a single throttle body, like most cars, feeds all 4 cylinders. An engine with 4 individual throttle has one per cylinder - but remember
only one (well, one and abit) cylinders are drawing air at a time. So, in fact the common plenum with a single large throttle appears to have the edge
over 4 smaller throttles. You cant just add up the airflow capability of 4 throttles and compare to the single throttle, its more like one throttle of
the set of 4 compared to the single throttle.
The performance increase normally seen with individual throttle bodes is more to do with the direct airflow path allowing the engine to breathe at
higher RPM, the more direct path to the valve the better as the engine does not need to suck as hard, quicker cylinder filling means more complete
fill at high RPM.
The duratec has a large inlet port as standard, so seems to respond better to larger throttle bodies. The good thing about fuel injection is its more
forgiving that carbs if you go too big on throttle size, carbs rely on vacuum across the jet to get the fuel, injection does not.
We have always opted for 45mm Jenveys on any 2.0L engine, regardless of tune, but would opt for 40 DCOEs (if customer wanted carbs) if the engine was
stock, 45s if tuned as over carbing a stock engine can affect drivablity.
i have slightly over size bodies on my car and there is a problem with driverbility its to do with throttle angle required under light loads and road
use
over size throttles need only very low amounts of throttle angle to produce the same airflow so you have to be very ginger with the throttle where as
a right size will give you a more linier throttle operation.
in data logs im getting above 90%baro between 16-25% throttle opening above 3k i do get 165+ bhp out of a fairly stock 1.8 zetec mind (only cams) the
last 20% throttle has not mutch effect to required fuel or power output.
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