DaveFJ
|
| posted on 3/12/06 at 11:57 AM |
|
|
Kent Cams - timing disc
Just recieved my Kent Cams FR33K kit from Burton Power.
All very nice but the timing disc is missing. I realise it is only a piece of card but.... how much do I really need it to set up the cam properly?
I guess I can get by using a protactor?
(I have contacted Burtons asking for a replacement but just wondered)
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
|
|
|
|
|
rusty nuts
|
| posted on 3/12/06 at 12:08 PM |
|
|
Do a search . Think a downloadable one was posted recently . Used one to time my cam , don't think you would be able to time it without one .
|
|
|
DaveFJ
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 08:30 AM |
|
|
fantastic
cheers 
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 09:28 AM |
|
|
Why did you buy an FR33 Dave???? They are horrible, you will hate it, i would never go for one of those...
Only joking Well done, hope the fitting goes well. Cant wait to hear your before and after report.
Darren.
|
|
|
DaveFJ
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 10:22 AM |
|
|
Just had an email back from Burton Power saying that Kent Cams no longer include a timing disc in their kits....!  
I have contacted Kent Cams direct to confirm this.........
Next question..... there is a big sticker on the side of the box saying 'Warning - Machining required'
the somewhat laughable installation instructions only mention machining the head if the kit has double coil spings (which it doesn't)
Anyone got any idea what machining is needed? 
[Edited on 4/12/06 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
|
|
|
DaveFJ
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 11:13 AM |
|
|
Just had this reply from Kent Cams
quote:
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your recent E-mail, we now supply the disc with our vernier pulleys, as we thought if you don't have adjustment then a disc is to
some extent not necessary, however if you'd care to forward your postal address I send one out FOC.
Best regards,
Del Johnson,
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:41 PM |
|
|
AFAICR the only maching required would be as you say for the interior springs to stop them for becoming coil bound and lunching the cam/head bearing
carriers.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 01:33 PM |
|
|
You dont need any machining unless you use double coil springs. You can get high tension single springs which are made of thinner wire, but a higher
poundage than the std ones. Infact, just to confuse matters, some double coil springs dont need the seats machining either... Just check you dont get
any coild bind on full lift. I will look up the clearance between the coild on full lift when i get home later. Easy enough to check with a feeler
gauge. The ones in your kit should be fine on an unmodded head.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:01 PM |
|
|
I didn't get a timing disk with the the Kent cam kit I bought for my xflow either. Somewhere in a mess that is my workshop I have one, but
couldn't findf it so I downloaded one, printed it and stuck it to a bit of cardboard, works fine. I wasn't using a vernier either (offset
dowels) so their theory is a bit suspect.
|
|
|
Rob Lane
|
| posted on 4/12/06 at 06:53 PM |
|
|
The machining they are on about is valve relief in the pistons. With a high lift cam on a xflow there is a real danger of valves meeting piston
chamber edge.
Look in my photos section for details how to install and time cams from an article by Dave Walker.
They are jpgs as files don't seem to be supported.
Rob Lane
oops just read it's a Pinto not Xflow, mixed up posts. Still the article is OK
[Edited on 4/12/06 by Rob Lane]
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 10:04 AM |
|
|
I hope you dont mind the hijack, it is kind of related.
1. What clearance settings would you go for on pinto with FR32 or FR33?
2. How does Kent recommend you time up the cams. I bought mine 2nd hand and just slung it in with std cam wheel. I now have vernier wheel to go on
dont know where to start. I dont suppose there are instructions on the Kent site are there?
|
|
|
DaveFJ
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 10:18 AM |
|
|
the instructions are so brief as to be almost laughable
However I believe they are repeated at the front of the Burton Power catalogue if you have one
Will have a look tonight and see if I can scan the instructions for you
HTH
EDIT> Just had a look at the Burton Power website and full instructions are available under the tech support section.
[Edited on 6/12/06 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 12:03 PM |
|
|
Here we go
https://www.burtonpower.com/Default.aspx
Clear as mud!!!! well not quite but i guess it will be easier in practice. All i need now is to print of Marks Disc and find the cam settings.
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 12:24 PM |
|
|
bloody hell - easy isnt it.
Timing wheel onto crank. Find true TDC (mid point of dwell). Zero the disc. Turn to 108deg ATDC.
On head set no1 to full lift. Alter vernier cam wheel to a full tooth position when fitting the belt - et voila, done.
All i need to suss now is valve clearance setting. Kent website shows 0.25E 0.3 I assume this means set exhausts to 0.3mm and inlets to 0.25mm -
sounds like a lot that does - any comments?
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 12:37 PM |
|
|
There are two methods of timing in cams:
1) Set the crank to TDC and then time the cam for a specified lift
2) Set the cam to maximum lift and time the crank to a specified angle.
Kent seem to recommend 1), but I when I put the cam in my crossflow the figures I got consistently showed my timing (with stock dowel) was 11 degrees
out which is a huge amount.
Using the traditional method 2) showed the timing marks were only 1 degree out, easily corrected by an offset dowel.
Not sure what I was doing wrong but I followed the instructions to the letter and repeated the process 5 or 6 times with consistent results. One
thing I wondered about was if you were supposed to include the valve clearance into the measured lift or not, as this would make a big difference.
[Edited on 6/12/06 by MikeRJ]
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 01:00 PM |
|
|
There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
much flipping BILLY on this subject that it makes my blood boil!!!!
firstly, the main reason to machine valve platforms when using double springs is nothing to do with coil binding, its to make room for the inner
spring!
Likewise many stem seals won't fit inside the inner spring.
Next, higher poundage single springs are nowhere near as good as double springs. The higher poundage is just one part of the issue, the other is that
the inner springs rub on the inside of the outers, damping the resonance of the springs.
Back to timing, if you have no method of adjustment, then the advice is quite right, you don't need a disk!
If you do have a method of asjustment, then stop to think what it is actually doing.
Timing figures quoted without corresponding lift values are as much use as an inflatable chocolate dartboard........how much of the cam lift is used
on valve clearance?????? What is the installed height of the valve??????
Further to that, where is TDC?
How do you determine TDC to put your bit of cardboard onto the engine???
With a vertical plug hole like on a 16v engine, you probe the piston with a dial gauge and then rock the engine, mark the crank pulley in two places
at each end of the "slack zone" and find the centre of the "slack zone" on the gauge as the crank goes over tdc.
To install a new cam properly need a brief rolling road session to time it in, where you can use the "lift on overlap" method with a dial
gauge. Set the cam to neutral timing i.e. equal inlet and exhaust lift at exact TDC, then advance or retard from there to find peak power.........that
is how to do the job properly.
If you can't do that then get your cam timing figures quoted with a lift figure to go with them i.e. 1mm of lift, then you take out most of the
inaccuracy.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 01:03 PM |
|
|
sorry for the rant!!!
Hope your setups going well Darren!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 01:48 PM |
|
|
Remember its #1 inlet valve not the exhaust valve, which is the first valve on a pinto head. Yeah guess who did it wrong first time
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 02:06 PM |
|
|
again, with lift on overlap this doesn't matter, you're setting inlet and exhaust simultaneously anyway on a Pinto, whic makes things much
easier, with twin cams you have the option of varying the lobe centreline angle as well which makes things harder to get right!
On a Pinto the cam grinder chooses that bit for you!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 02:11 PM |
|
|
Well, i thought i knew what to do!!!
Kent cams data as follows (FR32 data first, FR33 2nd)
Power Band
2,500 - 7,000rpm
3,000 - 7,000rpm
Cam Lift
6.98mm
7.11mm
Valve Lift
11.22mmE 10.92
11.76mmE 11.43
Duration
285deg E 280deg
300deg E 297deg
Timing
34/71 68/32
45/75 74/43
Full lift
108deg
108deg
Valve Clearance
0.25mmE 0.3
0.25mmE 0.3
L TDC
2.18mm
3.00mm
I can find block true TDC (mid point of TDC dwell) easily as head is off and i have a DTI and mag stand. Also have timing disc (thanks Mark). I can
also set no. 1 piston to 108deg ATDC no probs as a result.
I simply thought i just need to set no.1 inlet valve to the corresponding lift value (mid point of lift dwell) after the valve clearances are set up
to 0.25 / 0.3 (FR32 = 10.92). Fit head to block. then fit the timing belt (if cam is half tooth out just turn vernier wheel till it lines up to a full
tooth).
Am i wrong? Ive read the burton guide and the only difference to this is they say after the belt is fitted repeat the checking procedure and ensure
full lift is achieved with crank at 108deg ATDC and make adjustments on cam wheel if required then repeat to check.
What are the timing numbers (ie 34/71 68/32)??
What is the cam lift number for?
What is L TDC?
Sorry to be a pain. Might as well get it right.
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 6/12/06 at 02:28 PM |
|
|
You got it, sounds right. Would fit the head before finding full lift though.
Heres how i did it:
Found true TDC with head off block. Set up verier wheel and turned crank to 90deg ATDC. Put the head on, found true max vlave lift on #1 inlet valve.
Turn crank to 108deg ATDC then fit belt and lock off vernier pulley.
By turning the crank to 90deg ATDC yo make sure all the pistons are down their bores so you cant get valve/piston contact while you are setting
everything up.
David 
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
.jpg)
