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Lithium Ion batteries - testing the water
russbost - 20/8/12 at 12:02 PM

I am looking at stocking some lithium ion batteries. They are a direct replacement for motorcycle batteries & come in the standard size bike battery packages eg YTZ14s, YT12A-BS, YTZ12S are common sizes.

These lithium ion units can charge with any standard bike charger (it's important NOT to use a sophisticated charger with anti- sulphation cycle as this can damage them) & will be perfectly fine charging from normal bike or car alternators, come with 2 year guarantee, completely sealed units & no acid so no spillage issues.

They have nearly double the cranking power of a standard lead acid unit of comparable size (Ah).

They weigh around 1/3 of a normal bike battery, so a major weight saving, even more so if replacing a car battery, price will be around £140 - £160 depending on exact spec

Would be interested to hear peoples thoughts as to whether worthwhile (would have thought it's a must if you're racing!) & how many people would be likely to buy?

blueskate - 20/8/12 at 12:27 PM

yep registering my interest

v8kid - 20/8/12 at 12:48 PM

Yup interested if the cranking amps are as good as the Hawker type batteries for less weight. Need more details and comparisons though.

Cheers!

Edit

How does it compare to _

PC 680
680 cranking amps for 5 seconds
595 cranking amps for 10 seconds
525 cranking amps for 20 seconds
Short circuit current over 1800A
17Ah
25 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load

[Edited on 20-8-12 by v8kid]

BenB - 20/8/12 at 12:55 PM

Lithium batteries are the dogs. All my power tools are Li-ion and my leccy r/c planes all use li-polymer batteries. Lightweight, powerful and (now) cheap. They burn quite spectacularly but by the time the battery is on fire it's all a bit irrelevant anyway.

russbost - 20/8/12 at 01:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Yup interested if the cranking amps are as good as the Hawker type batteries for less weight. Need more details and comparisons though.

Cheers!

Edit

How does it compare to _

PC 680
680 cranking amps for 5 seconds
595 cranking amps for 10 seconds
525 cranking amps for 20 seconds
Short circuit current over 1800A
17Ah
25 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load

[Edited on 20-8-12 by v8kid]


Difficult to make exact comparisons as they don't give me all of that info - at the moment they don't seem to do anything bigger than around 11.5Ah, tho' I would have thought that's probably more than adequate for most cars on here, with the probable exception of large capacity lumps, the cranking power is given as 40CA+, so for an 11Ah battery that would give over 460A, but no info as to what time that would be over, I think it's fair to say that that is not comparing like for like tho' as I'd guess the weight of a 17Ah lead acid as being around 9 - 10kg?, A normal bike lead acid of 11Ah is around 5Kg & these are 1/3 or less of that so I would wxpect a weight of less than 2Kg!!!

I will be trying one on my Furore in the next few weeks; that usually kills the engine when the electric reverse is engaged & that is currently with a car battery (063) so will be interesting to see the comparison

maccmike - 20/8/12 at 01:30 PM

who's the guarantee with? you or manufacturer?

russbost - 20/8/12 at 01:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by maccmike
who's the guarantee with? you or manufacturer?


That's an interesting Q & one that I will have to check up on, my supplier has been selling them to the trade for around 8 months now &, I believe have sold several thousand with no comebacks as yet, I did specifically ask the Q as to whether thay had had any returns & was assured not. Unfortunately my point of contact is away on hols this week & I'm away next, so won't be able to confirm immediately - I would anticipat that in the event of a failure the product would be returned to them via myself - at least they're relatively cheap & easy to post as light & nothing to leak.

TBH I would have thought most likely cause of failure in a 2 year period would be down to a faulty charging system or short circuit, there's less to go wrong than with normal lead acid & they have a suggested cycle life (without significant performance degradation) of 2000+ cycles - I believe the equivalent spec for lead acid is around 300 cycles?

stevegough - 20/8/12 at 02:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Lithium batteries are the dogs. All my power tools are Li-ion and my leccy r/c planes all use li-polymer batteries. Lightweight, powerful and (now) cheap. They burn quite spectacularly but by the time the battery is on fire it's all a bit irrelevant anyway.


Got to agree with you - I bought a twin pack Makita drill set 4 years ago which is now totally useless as the batteries are NiCads and have given up. Tried to get some replacements - Li-Ions aren't available for it, and replacement NiCads are £50 each - that's a lot when the 2+2 set and case was only £99!

On the other hand, I bought a Hitachi drill a couple of years ago when the Makitas started giving problems - that has 2 x Li-Ions and is a cracking drill - you can charge them from part - charged, leave them for months and they don't drain away (apparently! I use it most days, so I haven't put this to the test!). They are also far lighter.

Having said that, coming back to the thread question - I wouldn't be wanting one of Russ's batteries for the kit - I'm happy with the ordinary Bosch I have got. - Sorry, Russ!

ashg - 20/8/12 at 03:40 PM

bonfire waiting to happen in my experience.

Fatgadget - 20/8/12 at 04:10 PM

Messing around with lithium batteries is far removed from lead acid jobbies.I got a lithium powered leccy bike for the past 3 years.Their charge/discharge topology is strict.Never charge above 4.2V per cell and Never discharge lower than 3.0V.Bad things happen if you do believe me!The beauty about lion cells is you can parallel them and hence get shed loads of current in a tight package.In true locost tradition,i use discarded lap top batteries.9 times out of 10 its the charge controller that packs up in them cells are usually fine.And I dont recommend charging them with a lead acid charger.They need a charger with a constant voltage of no more than 4.2V per cell and a constant current of the battery manufactures specification.

v8kid - 20/8/12 at 05:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
Messing around with lithium batteries is far removed from lead acid jobbies.I got a lithium powered leccy bike for the past 3 years.Their charge/discharge topology is strict.Never charge above 4.2V per cell and Never discharge lower than 3.0V.Bad things happen if you do believe me!The beauty about lion cells is you can parallel them and hence get shed loads of current in a tight package.In true locost tradition,i use discarded lap top batteries.9 times out of 10 its the charge controller that packs up in them cells are usually fine.And I dont recommend charging them with a lead acid charger.They need a charger with a constant voltage of no more than 4.2V per cell and a constant current of the battery manufactures specification.


Don't these batteries come with a charging circuit built into each cell?

I can see your point if you are recycling laptop batteries! However new lion batteries on ebay imply that the charging cct is built in or are these adverts stretching the truth

Cheers!

trikerneil - 20/8/12 at 05:08 PM

I have a 12V 22Ah Lithium Ion battery to run my CPAP breathing gear overnight when camping. It is only a kilo or so and has replaced a small car battery.
Cost me £200 last year though.

Neil

Dusty - 20/8/12 at 06:08 PM

Do they cope with being parked up and left for three months in winter in a cold garage? Or would you have to disconnect, bring inside etc.

Fatgadget - 20/8/12 at 06:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
Messing around with lithium batteries is far removed from lead acid jobbies.I got a lithium powered leccy bike for the past 3 years.Their charge/discharge topology is strict.Never charge above 4.2V per cell and Never discharge lower than 3.0V.Bad things happen if you do believe me!The beauty about lion cells is you can parallel them and hence get shed loads of current in a tight package.In true locost tradition,i use discarded lap top batteries.9 times out of 10 its the charge controller that packs up in them cells are usually fine.And I dont recommend charging them with a lead acid charger.They need a charger with a constant voltage of no more than 4.2V per cell and a constant current of the battery manufactures specification.


Don't these batteries come with a charging circuit built into each cell?
I can see your point if you are recycling laptop batteries! However new lion batteries on ebay imply that the charging cct is built in or are these adverts stretching the truth

Cheers!

Yes and No! Some purpose built lion batteries do come with a built in BMS (battery management system) therefore expensive and in my experience they are unreliable and when they do fail,it's uneconomic replacing a toasted BMS.Cells in the battery pack would still be OK.Much more cost effective an intelligent charger than the control electronics built into the battery..IMHO of course!

russbost - 20/8/12 at 06:36 PM

12V 22ah sounds like an absolute bargain at £200, are you sure that was £200 not £300!!!?

quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Do they cope with being parked up and left for three months in winter in a cold garage? Or would you have to disconnect, bring inside etc.


My understanding that losses due to standing/cold weather etc. are much less than with traditional lead acid

russbost - 20/8/12 at 06:47 PM

Some replies seem to be getting somewhat confused, as I understand it there are significant differences between lipo, lifepo & li ion; reference to bonfires waiting to happen, broken BMS etc etc are really not applicable to mass produced batteries already established in the marketplace, albeit in a tiny %age at the moment, & specifically designed by major manufacturers with massive R & D budgets for the market they are aimed at, I'm not suggesting I supply some second hand laptop cells with a dodgy bms knocked up in a shed by a mate!!!

These batteries would be coming from a major manufacturer who has been selling them for around 8 months already with no faulty units!

So far as I can establish the only way to explode these batteries is to set fire to them, tho' I wouldn't suggest shorting them out would be a good idea either ! I don't think a lead acid battery in a fire is exactly devoid of fumes & the potential to explode either if you set fire to it! If you use the wrong charger, ie one with anti-sulphation cycle, then you don't blow the battery up, tho' you might knacker it. The batteries are obviously designed to work with alternators fitted to existing vehicles.

trikerneil - 21/8/12 at 05:29 AM

Oops! sorry, is a 12V 22Ah lithium polymer battery. LINKY

Neil

coyoteboy - 11/9/12 at 11:01 PM

So do they or dont they come with full over and under voltage protection, charge control and SC protection? IIRC Lion cells come in 3.7 and 3.8v nominal (11.1 and 11.4 with 3 cells), undervolting at ~8.5v. Max charge voltage of 12.6ish so if they didnt i suspect theyd have had a few bonfires by now. How is cell balancing done?

RickRick - 12/9/12 at 06:00 AM

The cheaper battery for camping is probably not suitable for the high cranking amps of starting something, our rc car batterys vary quite a bit price wise, same capacity, different current rating.

Fatgadget - 27/9/12 at 12:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
So do they or dont they come with full over and under voltage protection, charge control and SC protection? IIRC Lion cells come in 3.7 and 3.8v nominal (11.1 and 11.4 with 3 cells), undervolting at ~8.5v. Max charge voltage of 12.6ish so if they didnt i suspect theyd have had a few bonfires by now. How is cell balancing done?


One needs a thorough read of the manufactures specifications of these batteries.

russbost - 27/9/12 at 02:19 PM

Unfortunately they don't give us full spec sheets for these, tho' I have now done some testing - posted a link to the video on my facebook page a few days ago, in case you missed it

Here

I effectively short circuit one of the little (4Ah lead acid equivalent) Li Ion batteries across the electric reverse starter on the car with no ill effects whatsoever

The batteries are specifically designed for the motorcycle market (tho can obviously spill over into the car & kitcar market), they have been on sale from the manufacturer I believe for around 2 years now, from my supplier for around 8 or 9 months. My supplier has had no faulty units returned & the manufacturer has no reported bonfires. If they weren't under & over voltage protected I rather think there would be lots of web reports about them, people aren't usually backward in coming forward with this sort of thing - I can't find any for any batteries of this type.

Obviously if you take a battery with no short circuit protection & abuse it with a short circuit it is hardly surprising if it goes up in smoke!!!

Fatgadget - 27/9/12 at 02:34 PM

quote:

Unfortunately they don't give us full spec sheets for these


Alarm bells right there!

Why not?...How you gonna sell something without knowing it's full specifications?

russbost - 27/9/12 at 04:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
quote:

Unfortunately they don't give us full spec sheets for these


Alarm bells right there!

Why not?...How you gonna sell something without knowing it's full specifications?


Because it's made as an exact replacement for an existing product!

If you want to use it for something other than an exact replacement then you would need to look at the realistic requirements of that use, if an 8Ah lead acid would do the job, then the 8Ah equivalent Li Ion unit would also do the job

coyoteboy - 2/10/12 at 07:32 PM

quote:
I effectively short circuit one of the little (4Ah lead acid equivalent) Li Ion batteries across the electric reverse starter on the car with no ill effects whatsoever


Couple of points though:

1) Your reverse motor isn't even close to a full short, but a full short would do serious damage to the inside of the cells and cause capacity damage. We work with smaller cells, but these can have half their lifespan wiped off by slipping with a connector for a fraction of a second. But that's not the point of the short circuit protection as the damage is done in an instant, the point of the SC protection is to stop the fireworks when the cell eventually vents (frayed cable grounding it etc).

2) Again, if there's no over-voltage protection it means you'll be damaging the cells and risking a fire, especially in the rather harsh world of car electronics with large variations in voltage. It may have it built in but I'd want to know first. The "it seems to work for a couple of years" method isn't really ideal when you're spending that much.

I'm not talking about broken BMS, this can happen to any battery but even so a well designed system should not allow a flare situation to occur. What I'm asking is what does it have? Having been part of an attempt to make just such a replacement with integral BMS and all the current/voltage capabilities of the original I know it's actually hard work (we found it ultimately too expensive to do properly to be worth bothering for the market we were aiming at), so if it's done properly I'd love to know what the specs are, what voltage is runs, what balancing methods it uses etc (Just out of curiosity, I'm not in that role anymore!). Call me picky, but when we supply batteries they come with everything from extended capacity tests, shelf life test data, full schematics and thermal testing etc. Maybe I expect a bit much but a halfway house would be nice


[Edited on 2/10/12 by coyoteboy]