Board logo

Lithium Ion battery info
russbost - 25/9/12 at 08:04 AM

Some of you may be aware I mentioned recently I was looking at stocking a range of Lithium Ion motorcycle & car batteries. Well I've gone ahead & now have them in stock.

I've recorded a short video which you'll find on my facebook page Here

I don't seem to be able to do a direct link to the video? If anyone else can please do!

If you're even vaguely interested in this new technology then I suggest take a look, the performance is pretty amazing! They are not just for bikes or BEC's they will certainly handle car engines too.

Please share the vid on Facebook &/or other forums, I want to tell the world how great these batteries are! Alongside all the bike applications there is now a 20AH version which should be capable of dealing with just about anything in the kitcar market, retails at £224.95

I have the full range (except the 20Ah - getting the first of those today) on Ebay & on my website www.furoreproducts.co.uk Link
- there are not big markups in these batteries, but if we're dealing direct I can offer a 5% discount

TheGiantTribble - 25/9/12 at 08:34 AM

WOW that sure is one impressive vid

loggyboy - 25/9/12 at 08:44 AM

Surely the demo of the car battery should have also shown the 5sec reverse hold down and restart?

russbost - 25/9/12 at 08:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Surely the demo of the car battery should have also shown the 5sec reverse hold down and restart?


Now he tells me!

Maybe, but I'm quite sure it would have restarted, that's a heavy duty 32Ah battery, I don't think anyone would doubt the capability of a standard lead acid battery, but it is a little difficult to convince yourself that something weighing less than 1Kg can possibly do the same job!

twybrow - 25/9/12 at 09:22 AM

Impressive stuff Russ! I think I would upgrade once my current one dies (difficult to justify switching from a standard bike battery to one of these when the current one is already small and quite light and still works!).

loggyboy - 25/9/12 at 09:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Now he tells me!
Maybe, but I'm quite sure it would have restarted, that's a heavy duty 32Ah battery, I don't think anyone would doubt the capability of a standard lead acid battery, but it is a little difficult to convince yourself that something weighing less than 1Kg can possibly do the same job!


Ahh i see, i thougt the demo was to prove they were better, but infact its prove they are as good, but lighter etc. Makes sense now!!

maccmike - 25/9/12 at 10:20 AM

On a side note, I wasnt too sure about the looks of the cars in your still photos in your archive.
However, now Iv seen that video, which shows the kit off better, I want one

FuryRebuild - 25/9/12 at 10:29 AM

Hi Russ

Please quote direct for something that can happily crank a duratec with standard compression and starter.

I used varley red-tops in the past (happy with them) but they didn't seem to last more than a couple of years, and I'll put that down partly to my neglect.

Can you remind us what the charging/topup regeime is on these. I assume it's from a standard alternator with no cleverness inbetween. IIRC you said you can top them up from a simple trickle charger but not to go for a complex battery conditioning charger - they don't like that.

thanks in advance

Mark

RickRick - 25/9/12 at 10:55 AM

Also i can't see capacity or cranking amps on the website for each battery, i can more or less fit whatever size i like, so knowing what they put out would be good

russbost - 25/9/12 at 11:22 AM

quote:
Originally posted by maccmike
On a side note, I wasnt too sure about the looks of the cars in your still photos in your archive.
However, now Iv seen that video, which shows the kit off better, I want one


I shall await your order!

russbost - 25/9/12 at 11:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Hi Russ

Please quote direct for something that can happily crank a duratec with standard compression and starter.

I used varley red-tops in the past (happy with them) but they didn't seem to last more than a couple of years, and I'll put that down partly to my neglect.

Can you remind us what the charging/topup regeime is on these. I assume it's from a standard alternator with no cleverness inbetween. IIRC you said you can top them up from a simple trickle charger but not to go for a complex battery conditioning charger - they don't like that.

thanks in advance

Mark


Mark, safest bet would be the biggest one, the 20 Ah jobby, If we're dealing direct I can do 10% off the retail £224.95 on that particular one (it's the only one I can do 10% on) & £6.95 P & P (special delivery). I would expect any of the larger batteries (anything with a 12 in the part no. with the exception of YT12b-bs) to be capable of handling a duratec under most circumstances but possibly not at -15 degrees cold start in the middle of winter - depends on your regular useage of the vehicle. They are very good in terms of little loss of power when left for a month or 2, so hopefully you'd get better life.

As regards charging etc. they are fine with an ordinary alternator or any form of trickle charger providing it doesn't have an anti sulphation cycle - that apparently can damage these batteries

Regards Russ

russbost - 25/9/12 at 12:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RickRick
Also i can't see capacity or cranking amps on the website for each battery, i can more or less fit whatever size i like, so knowing what they put out would be good


They don't give us an actual Ah spec for any of the batteries (I've described the largest in the range as 20Ah as it replaces lead acid batteries of 20Ah) I think this may partially be because they behave very differently from a lead acid battery, they simply give part no.'s for the lead acid units they are intended to replace, so easiest answer in the case of a bike engine is to get the part no. of the battery fitted to the bike it came from, with car engines, not quite so easy, but I will be getting more feedback shortly as I have someone fitting the large one to an Audi 1.4 diesel

If you have, say, a Fireblade engine the most common battery fitted to the CBR900 & CBR1000 is the YTZ10s - the lead acid version is only a 9Ah battery with a max CCA of 190A, the Li IOn replacement is LIPO10A, they give cranking current as being 210A, but also say these have a max CCA of over 40CA+, so I would strongly suspect that the battery is actually capable of well over 300A for short bursts, tho' not to be recommended for regular use that way

It's a bit like what I did in the demo with the YTX5L-BS,they give CCA as being 85A, but it's capable of turning over a ZZR1400 engine at the other end of 4.5m of battery cable - I'd be very surprised if that's only 85A!!!

I will update the website & ebay with CCA figures as that's a good guideline of what the battery is capable of.

Bare - 25/9/12 at 04:02 PM

Interesting idea Lipos.. Technology finally filtering down to Autos.
Small point though. the #1 ! killer of batteries in vehicles (beyond utter Sloth ;-) is the primitive AND brutal charging systems typically fitted to vehicles.
Lipos Require Very precise /controlled charging (tenths/hundreds of a volt) or they quickly die or even Explode.
Fairly Easy to build a capable/safe charger for steady stable House current sources.
Seriously more complex to do similar for a widely(wildly?) varying current from an Alternator that is constantly changing RPMs.
Despite owning at least a Dozen Lipo battery packs.
Not likely I will be retrofitting one to ANY vehicle I own.

Perhaps these ones are purpose designed .. perhaps not.
All I know is that Lipo fires ARE spectacular events.

russbost - 25/9/12 at 05:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Interesting idea Lipos.. Technology finally filtering down to Autos.
Small point though. the #1 ! killer of batteries in vehicles (beyond utter Sloth ;-) is the primitive AND brutal charging systems typically fitted to vehicles.
Lipos Require Very precise /controlled charging (tenths/hundreds of a volt) or they quickly die or even Explode.
Fairly Easy to build a capable/safe charger for steady stable House current sources.
Seriously more complex to do similar for a widely(wildly?) varying current from an Alternator that is constantly changing RPMs.
Despite owning at least a Dozen Lipo battery packs.
Not likely I will be retrofitting one to ANY vehicle I own.

Perhaps these ones are purpose designed .. perhaps not.
All I know is that Lipo fires ARE spectacular events.


Well, obviously they are purpose designed, they are a range of batteries specifically designed to replace existing units as specified. They state in their literature "non-explosive & non-combustible". I have added "in normal use" in my adverts!

These batteries have been on worldwide sale for around 9 months or so now (possibly longer) & my supplier tells me they have had no faulty units returned & no complaints of anything untoward. They've just vastly increased the no. of partno.'s availabler & thye size of their stock - I doubt they'd be doing that if they were getting complaints of explosions!!!

They obviously do have a rate they recommend not charging above, with the larger units that is 40 amps, I can't think of a bike application that has an alternator that puts out 40 amps? Anyone?

Obviously many modern car alternators are capable of putting out vastly more than that, but then they would have to have a reason to do so, ie the battery would have to be virtually completely flat, if you flatten a lead acid battery completely & then let the alternator charge it flat out for half an hour or so it is frequently the end of the battery being of much use - these will recharge to around 90% of capacity in around 6 minutes, so I doubt you'd damage by an overcharge in any normal situation. Plus of course for kitcar use you normally only have a fairly small capacity alternator anyway, but obviously I appreciate that some people are more open to change & progress than others!

Fatgadget - 25/9/12 at 05:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Interesting idea Lipos.. Technology finally filtering down to Autos.
Small point though. the #1 ! killer of batteries in vehicles (beyond utter Sloth ;-) is the primitive AND brutal charging systems typically fitted to vehicles.
Lipos Require Very precise /controlled charging (tenths/hundreds of a volt) or they quickly die or even Explode.
Fairly Easy to build a capable/safe charger for steady stable House current sources.
Seriously more complex to do similar for a widely(wildly?) varying current from an Alternator that is constantly changing RPMs.
Despite owning at least a Dozen Lipo battery packs.
Not likely I will be retrofitting one to ANY vehicle I own.

[bold] Perhaps these ones are purpose designed .. perhaps not.
All I know is that Lipo fires ARE spectacular events.[/bold]

You can say that again!
Another trait of Lipos..Discharge them below 3V per cell and 9 times out of ten they are toast.

russbost - 25/9/12 at 06:11 PM

"You can say that again!
Another trait of Lipos..Discharge them below 3V per cell and 9 times out of ten they are toast."

You don't think they might have thought of that when designing the product??? I think you'll find these behave just the same as lipos in a li ion drill, push them too hard & they simply cut out so you can't damage them, use them more gently or put a bit of charge in & they come back to life.

YODI - 6/11/12 at 11:29 PM

How much do you know about Lithium batteries mate?

Reason I ask is that, January this year I bought 2 Citroen C1 Evies, all electric powered 2 year old cars with between 90-400 miles on each car. I sold 2 pretty much right away and kept one for myself and just used it when I needed a car.

The cars where stuck in a showroom for the first 2 years of their life getting charged at randon times, the one I have left is lacking power, only charges to 95%, runs slow compared to the other 2 I had and by 50% it doesnt want to do much else and needs charging but the others ran happily to 30%

So, can you help? Any idea, something you can look at ?

Let me know mate maybe we can sort something out. The car still only has 400 miles on it from new

PS. Whats this about balancing Lithium batteries?

Yodi

YODI - 6/11/12 at 11:30 PM

loggyboy - 6/11/12 at 11:39 PM

Li-ion designated batteries should not be confused with LiPo designated batteries. liion are much less volatile.

russbost - 7/11/12 at 09:24 AM

@ loggyboy, these are designated both lithium ion & Lipo, so my understanding of this is that they are Lithium Ion Polymer.

@Yodi, I do not profess to be battery expert in any way shape or form, hence why I am dealing with a large & established manufacturer who has ironed out any "wrinkles" with the product in testing, a long time b4 the product gets to market - a fact which does not appear to be appreciated by everyone on here!

Re the Citroen, first Q would be what is the warranty situation? Even if out of warranty I would not have thought Citroen would want bad press re batteries, so if you write to Citroen customer service & make enough noise you may well get free replacement batteries, or at least a substantial contribution.

Failing that, one thing you can be pretty sure of is that Citroen will have made the battery pack unique to them, it may use proprietory cells, but I'll bet they have them packaged to suit their application & I have little doubt a battery pack will be several grand I would suggest join the BVS (battery vehicle society) forums (free), there are lots of people on there with vastly more battery knowledge than I have. So far as I know there is no way of salvaging a Lithium battery pack once on it's way out, but it's possible that it may be just a couple of cells pulling the rest of the pack down, in which case it's possible a specialist may be able to just replace a few cells?

Best of luck with it!

YODI - 7/11/12 at 10:05 AM

Thnanks for your reply

Unforunately the cars were bought brand ne unregistered from Citroen by the ECC (Electric car company) who no longer exist.

There are 26 batteries I believe, wired in series in 2 different places on the car, Ive taken the covers off and the batteries have identification marks on them so I will see what I can do.

coyoteboy - 7/11/12 at 01:05 PM

I'd still want to know more about the internals of these. They show great potential.

They should have undervolt protection to turn them off, but that won't help if you leave them to go flat via their own internal resistance. Likewise you damage lipo cells by keeping them in a charged state for long lengths of time, they like to sit around 40% charged to minimise damage when not cycling.

I would still question the lack of documentation of the internals and the lack of details about capacity. We made a battery that would charge from a normal alt (with some intermediate circuitry) and cell balance, and start a bike engine while hardly trying, based on the hardware from a pair of RC toy batteries. Not sure they would have lasted 9 months in regular use, but with the right controls it should be OK. The capacity was very low though, 6.6Ah. It would happily start the car even better than the lead acid initially but the lack of capacity gave it a very short fuse if the engine wouldn't start.

[Edited on 7/11/12 by coyoteboy]

russbost - 7/11/12 at 02:29 PM

I'm still kicking the supplier for more info on these. As I've said b4 they've sold 100's without any problems, I've sold around 25 or so & have had only compliments so far - certainly no complaints!