I'll be looking at wiring the dash soon and how the Savage range of switches can be configured.

The switches have led lights behind the legend and it would be useful if this light could be used for both backlighting and warning purposes - i.e.

1. Day - Full on when activated
2. Night - Dim backlighting and full on for activated state.

Has anyone played around with this type of setup? I would imagine a common series resistor would do the trick, with maybe a link to the car's lighting circuit to toggle the brightness level at night.

I can't find a supplier of the lights which match the switches (main beam, oil, indicators etc) Anyone found one?

Im planning on using them too and would also like the idea. Like the fan overide, dim at night, bright when fan is on.

Sorry I cant offer any help though

Rich

ive got those switches look cool lit up got them off of zxrlocost on this site
you could use a double switching relay to dim the lights when the side lights are switched on , switching it through to a resistor very simple todo.
i could draw u up a diagram if u want.

That would be great mate

Rich

Ditto - can't be bothered to play about with resistors...but if some soul happens to post a valid one, a few may just find their way into my car

not sure about resistor size yet will have to try a few for brightness t night

you would obviously use this one relay for all switches so if you wanted them to come brighter when switched on (will only work at night or when lights on) you could connect the output from the switch to the led and there would need tobe a diode on each switch from the relay supply if that dont make sense ill do another pic



for how razman wants it its simply resistor inline of side light supply
the switched live to the led with adiode between the side light supply

[Edited on 12/1/06 by k33ts]

this would auto dim at night be on full in day



[Edited on 12/1/06 by k33ts]

Circuit is simple enough; Any suggestions on resistor size?

[Edited on 12/1/06 by stevebubs]

If I remember my college circuit theory (which was 30 years ago ) the resistor value would depend on the number of LEDs in parallel. Ideally every LED should have its own resistor but that would complicate things and k33ts's circuit is a good compromise
Rescued attachment Savage Circuit Diagrams.jpg

I dont see the need for a realy as long as you put some diodes in to stop the light trying to run the device being switched and visa versa. WOuld post a diagram but not sure how to post pics.

Sounds a bit overly complicated to me. Nearly all of mine light up when i put lights on. Only exception is hazard switch that flashes when hazards are on. All other tell tales are on the DD2. Ive been driving in winter daylight with sidelights on as a better warning to other drivers so switches are on most of time. I dont find them to be overly bright during night. If you think they are why not use one of those dimming wheels (rheostat?) that most cars have nowadays so you can turn them down?

(If you use DD2 you need to be mindful that the indicator tell tale soent work with ignition off - fail point for hazard operation).

This curcuit will do the following.

During normall day driving, ie lights turned off, the switches will not be iluminated enless the switch is activated.

During night driving, ie light on, the switch will be ilimunated to a level dependent on the resistor and will go to full brightness when the switch is turned on.

Rusty, I wasn't sure how to use diodes but your diagram makes it clear to me now. I suppose either method will have the same effect but yours will need one diode for every switch whereas my relay method only requires 2 components for any number of switches.

Is there a particular type of diode for this application?

quote:

---

Originally posted by DarrenW
Ive been driving in winter daylight with sidelights on as a better warning to other drivers so switches are on most of time. I dont find them to be overly bright during night.

---

The type of diode depends on the current load but as the switches use LED's it is not alot.

1N4001 1A Rectifier diode 50V max are 4p from my supplier but in maplin 1N4006 1A 800V 7p each maplin code QL78K

Paralleling LED's like that doesn't usualy work very well, as the voltage drops are never identical, so the one with the lowest Vf hogs most of the current, making it brighter. It's always best to have 1 resistor per LED.

You will also need a hand full of diodes to prevent reverse feeding the other LED's when one LED is set to full brightness.

Couple of circuits here. The first one requires 2 diodes and 2 resistors per LED. Taking the first LED as an example, the night illumination current is determined by R1+R2, and the "active" current is set by R2.


The "deluxe" version uses a voltage regulator to set the night illumination current. This means you can control the night illumination brightness of all the LED's with a single potentiometer. It uses 1 diode and two resistors per LED.


Please note the LED resistor values are guesses, they will probably need to be adjusted by experimentation to see what brightness level you prefer.

[Edited on 23/6/07 by MikeRJ]

This must be what its like to be part of the Borg collective !! Thanks for all the ideas guys

Mike, your diagrams are exactly what I had in mind - controlling the levels with a pot is ideal. One thing that springs to mind is the fact that the led's in the switches must already have a resistor in series to operate on 12V. This resistor may have a bearing on the value of the external components used (although I haven't a clue how) I have dismantled a switch and the led looks like a tiny filament bulb with a metal case and a contact on the bottom. The resistor is possibly inside this case.

As the switches' spade terminals are quite tiny it will be difficult to terminate multiple wires onto them. IMHO the best way to connect everything would be to make a small pcb which will contain all components. Flying leads would then go to the switches and 'choc blocks' used for the loom connections. Does that sound feasable?

[Edited on 12-1-06 by RazMan]

I based my curcuit on the switch ilumination being 12v ready hence only one resistor.

I also agree that have one resistor per LED is a much better option and making up a PCB or strip board with all components would make a neat job.

[Edited on 12/1/06 by rusty]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RazMan
As the switches' spade terminals are quite tiny it will be difficult to terminate multiple wires onto them. IMHO the best way to connect everything would be to make a small pcb which will contain all components. Flying leads would then go to the switches and 'choc blocks' used for the loom connections. Does that sound feasable?

[Edited on 12-1-06 by RazMan]

---

Some great replies. Its years since I did electronics at school so Im going to have to have a good think, but heres another one for the pot.

The savage rear fog switch is non latching so its going to need a relay I guess to latch it on, so push on, push off. Is this easily incorporated into the above illumination ?

Thanks for any advice, only got a rough idea of how to do this

Rgds

Rich

Rich, It would appear that Savage, in their infinite wisdom, made a few of their range momentary (not latching) and they have been subject to a number of returns regarding this obvious error. The fan switch suffers from the same fault apparently. It is probably worth having a word with your supplier to see if anything can done - the switches / button assemblies / legends are all interchangeable so as a worst case you could buy another latching switch and swop the parts over - but not the cheapest solution.

Ah sorry, it is the fan Im thinking of as I bought a fan and a rear fog from zxrlocost on here. I queried it at the time and the response was, that was the way savage intended and any latching had to be done with a relay.

Bit dissapointing considering the price

Thanks

Rich

I think that is what's called a cop out Rich. How can they justify a non latching fan switch but have a latching aircon switch and who wants to design in a switch which needs a circuit board to do a simple job anyway?

I was told by the supplier that I bought mine from (but only a couple for evaluation purposes) that the fan switch issue has been resolved. I am presently looking for about 10 switches & lights (including a fan) so it will be interesting to see which version I get

Aye, certainly sounds like it. Ive mentioned it again to zxrlocost and hes going to exchange it with Savage.

Does anyone fancy making up some PCBs for this? I like the idea of using the pot to adjust the "dim" night mode, would it also adjust the "full bright" when activated? Ive never used the predrilled type PCBs before, only UV etching and that was years ago.

Thanks
Richie

I imagine there must be a few people out there with the kit neccessary to do this - failing that, some stripboard would probably do it (although not quite as professional looking)

It will of course depend on the number of switches in your dash array - I'm aiming for:

1. Engine Start
2. Fan switch
3. Fan speed (use aircon switch)
4. Rear Fog light
5. Washer jets
6. Noz
7. Traction control
8. Launch control
9. Door release (driver)
10. Door release (passenger)

Maybe this is a little ott for most builders, but I would say that a module built for 5 switches should cover most people's requirements. If more switches are installed you can always add another module accordingly.



[Edited on 14-1-06 by RazMan]

Only fan and rear fog for me, but I intend to fit push button start after SVA.

Rgds

Richie

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC
I like the idea of using the pot to adjust the "dim" night mode, would it also adjust the "full bright" when activated?

---

Id definately fancy a a circuit. I reckon fitted into a nice little case with the rheostat on the outside would be a superb little addition.

Im happy for the night illumination to be fairly bright as long as it doesnt scare the sh** out of you when the fan kicks in at night
Any help greatly appreciated.
Kind Rgds

Richie

I've just ordered all my switches from zxrlocost so I am committed now

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC
Id definately fancy a a circuit. I reckon fitted into a nice little case with the rheostat on the outside would be a superb little addition.

Im happy for the night illumination to be fairly bright as long as it doesnt scare the sh** out of you when the fan kicks in at night
Any help greatly appreciated.
Kind Rgds

Richie

---

Thatll be much appreciated Mike thanks

Richie

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC

Im happy for the night illumination to be fairly bright as long as it doesnt scare the sh** out of you when the fan kicks in at night

---

Yep, thats correct. The standard switch from the MNR loom does this so it shouldnt be too tricky to achieve.

Rgds

Rich

Here we go:



This uses two voltage regulators, an LM317T and an LM337T (ignore the LT1585, CAD package didn't have the proper symbol). Both are cheap and readily available parts. The LM337T is actualy a negative voltage regulator, but is used "upside down" in this circuit to adjust the voltage at the LED's cathode.

The other regulator, the LM317T is a conventional positive regulator, that provides a fixed positive voltage at the LED anode when the lights are turned on.

Both regulators are adjustable, and work like this:

VR1 controls overall brightness. This controls both the night illumination brightness, and the "activated" brightness of the LED.


VR2 controls only the night illumination brightness (in conjuction with VR1). Think of this control as a "contrast" control, it effectively controls the difference between night illumination and "activated" brightness. This pot would likely want to be a preset device that is set only one when you first install the system. The other one could be mounted on the dash for night time brightness setting.

This circuit only requires 2 extra diodes for each LED, which would probably be more convienient to build into the loom near the switches rather than put on a separate PCB to save the amount of wires needed.

Any comments are welcomed.

[Edited on 23/6/07 by MikeRJ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MikeRJ
Comments are welcomed

---

I just answered a PM to Richie about this. I'm only too happy to provide help in circuit design etc. and I can probably get a PCB layout knocked up, but I just don't have enough free time due to a young daughter and work comitments to organise group buys etc.

What I will do is knock up a quick 'proof of concept' prototype on stripboard just to be sure this works as intended, and list the required part numbers from RS/Farnell etc.

Thats great Mike - much appreciated

If you could post a pic of the stripboard when its done, it would probably give most of us the courage to continue your good work.

Thanks for your time and the U2U Mike.

Id be happy to crack on with a strip board once Ive seen one and if you can supply maplin/RS part numbers that would be superb. As far as a full PCB goes, Id need someone to do that for me as I dont have any equipment to do it.

Id prefer to have all of the components located in one case, to avoid much modification to the loom. However, I just realised now, the resistors are already incorporated into the savage switches? So the only external components would be the diodes I guess.
Also, are D5 D6 and D8 zener diodes?

Im going to have a look again at the circuit and put it into a 2 way setup as I only have fog and fan, although I expect to add a push start at some point (which ideally would just be lit when the ignition is on but the engine is off.....god how these things get out of hand)

Thanks again

Kind Rgds

Richie

[Edited on 17/1/06 by RichieC]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC
...I expect to add a push start at some point (which ideally would just be lit when the ignition is on but the engine is off.....god how these things get out of hand)

---

The options are endless eh I think its a nice touch that if the engine stalls, the start button lights up. So when pressed or engine isnt running (not entirely sure the best way to derive that) it lights up full, otherwise off or dim with the others.
I hadnt realised there were two sizes of start button, only Start and Engine Start. Did they change the size when they changed that?

Ill have it off you either way mate, Im not sure if I want to do it before SVA or leave it until after. I guess if the ignition key is still there theyll be happy so itll be key on and either rotate to start or press the button.

Good discussion this one, good fun playing with electronics, if only Id remembered more from school and my previous job

Kind Rgds

Richie

I know the feeling - I went through college and got 12 City & Guilds in telecommunications but now I have to rack my brain to think about simple electronic theory.
It was 30 years ago though

There is a normal sized 'start' and a slightly larger 'engine start' I just liked the idea of the bigger button but I've still got to think of a layout for the dash.

Well if youre wanting rid of the Start, Ill have it mate.
Just U2U me with details

Kind Rgds

Rich

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC
The options are endless eh I think its a nice touch that if the engine stalls, the start button lights up.

---

Ah yeh of course that would work.

Thanks mate

Rich

quote:

---

Originally posted by stevebubs

I did this by wiring the illumination in-line with the alternator warning light...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC
Thanks for your time and the U2U Mike.

I However, I just realised now, the resistors are already incorporated into the savage switches?

---

quote:

---

Also, are D5 D6 and D8 zener diodes?

---

Oops, Ill get me coat

Rgds

Richie

Are the savage button leds already 12volts ready??

When i put 5volts on the button it lights beutifully!! but offcourse don't know what happens when 12volts are feeded..

Tks

Anyone had any more thoughts about this one? Or indeed any component details?
Im currently about to replace my switches in the loom with Savage ones.

Thanks

Rich

Mine are.

Just got 'em fitted in new dash, work a treat.

Earlier in this thread someone was given crap that the fan switches don’t latch.....

I got mine from waxacar.co.uk after a post on here (Hellfire I think).

They were only showing a none latching fan switch (drive with your over-ride finger on the switch when it gets hot????)

I emailed them and they added a latching fan switch to the website straight away.

There appear to be 4 different switch bases (unless I had a bad batch and should only be 2), that the different tops just clip into.

The switch parts can be Latching or Non-Latching - So theoretically you should be able to get whatever combination you want.

I had some that had 2 x N/C and 2 x N/O

and some only had 1 N/O - the 2nd wouldn't ring out!

Unfortunately I'd chucked the datasheets away that came with them, so couldn't check - I didn't take it any further cus I didn't need the 2nd N/C & N/O.

I've wired up the start button, to just light up when pressed - pointless really - just seen the alternator warning feed idea...

... Now look.... I thought I'd finished!!! - I'll have to look into that now!

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichieC
Anyone had any more thoughts about this one? Or indeed any component details?
Im currently about to replace my switches in the loom with Savage ones.

Thanks

Rich

---

I can make a simple sheme to put the lights on when it gets dark...

offcourse adjustable..

myself i was thinking of using 2 sensors one at either side of the scuttle..
i wanted that because it garanties:
1) reduntancy?? (if one failes there is a spare one)
2) you cant play with the lights on your own (by putting your finger on the thing..

i was thinking in using an LDR

Tks

Isn't that just using techology for technology's sake? An LDR might get confused at night anyway, with car headlights triggering it at night - it might make an interesting light show though

Taking that idea one stage further, you could link the GPS system to a central database in South Africa where all the world's lighting up times are stored, triggering ................ nah !

[Edited on 26-4-06 by RazMan]

That's the reason i want to mount 2..

anyway, whats then the reason people buy cars who do that? even more stupid wich put the wipers on when it rains...

Technolegy is there for technology..
and technology makes technology...

What whas there first? the egg? or the chicken??

The lathe or the lathe machined axle??

Ah but the finger that operated them was there before all of them

mine light up red when on,
flush fit them drill a hole in the side of the switch at the back and glue an led in
i used the switch on the back to control as youve already got n/o and n/c

pic of two outer ones on

Hi K33ts

Am I right in thinking they are illuminated blue permanently and red when selected on?

If so, this would achieve an ideal solution for me.

Thanks and Rgds

Rich

PS Love the dash, what size OMP wheel is that ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by k33ts
mine light up red when on,
flush fit them drill a hole in the side of the switch at the back and glue an led in
i used the switch on the back to control as youve already got n/o and n/c

---

I dont think there red when on but some of the switches are red anyway Ie brake light

they look wicked when on but are a very bright

quote:

---

Originally posted by zxrlocost
I dont think there red when on but some of the switches are red anyway Ie brake light

---

isnīt there anyway to open up the thing
and just change the led?

There are leds wich con do multiple colours (like a pixel on your screen)

When changing the voltage the colour will change..

Tks

quote:

---

Originally posted by tks
isnīt there anyway to open up the thing
and just change the led?

---

the only thing i donīt like is drilling the alu ring, alsi i tough that that ring was on the other side of the board..

looks like you sandwiched the button by the ring and the first alu ring (it has the gommet in between??? )

we need one extra pic to clearify the happenings.. one shot of the other side of the dash of the button in focussed

Tks

Thought I'd resurrect this thread again to say I've had a go at making my Savage switches light up dimly with the dash illumination and then full brightness for the tell tales.

My circuit is identical to the very first one that MikeRJ posted back on pg 2. I found that the blue LEDs light up with a fairly small voltage across them and have quite a high resistance built in (about 2k Ohm iirc). I'm currently using 4.4k Ohm resistors to give the dimming effect, I might go up to 5 or 6k. The switches the illuminate red have a lower resistance, I think it was 1.3k Ohm and need a higher forward voltage to get them to light up - something above 5V anyway. I haven't experimented much with these yet, but a 1.3k Ohm resistor would probably be a good place to start.

It might be worth adding the voltage regulator as small changes in input voltages seem to affect the brightness noticeably when the LEDs aren't fully lit. Instruments getting brighter as you accelerate would be an interesting effect

quote:

---

Originally posted by tks
the only thing i donīt like is drilling the alu ring, alsi i tough that that ring was on the other side of the board..

looks like you sandwiched the button by the ring and the first alu ring (it has the gommet in between??? )

we need one extra pic to clearify the happenings.. one shot of the other side of the dash of the button in focussed

Tks

---

dont know how to get more than one picture in a post so heres another one.

well i'm going to do it different.

Going to hook every switch to a nice 5volts regulator wich will be powered by the light switch.

If the light switch is used then it will get powered by a 5volts xk ohm resistor.

Once used it will supply it self 5volts without the resistor from a 2nd reg.

the regulators will become the start dip etc. etc.

How is the radius of the button?
Or should i make a 3mm ally sheet where in the button will be placed?
in that way the ball could touch it??

and the 3mm sheet can be rounded up to 2,5mm radius right??

is a chamfer also any good??

sorry for the questions

[Edited on 24/5/06 by tks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tks
well i'm going to do it different.

Going to hook every switch to a nice 5volts regulator wich will be powered by the light switch.

If the light switch is used then it will get powered by a 5volts xk ohm resistor.

Once used it will supply it self 5volts without the resistor from a 2nd reg.

the regulators will become the start dip etc. etc.

How is the radius of the button?
Or should i make a 3mm ally sheet where in the button will be placed?
in that way the ball could touch it??

and the 3mm sheet can be rounded up to 2,5mm radius right??

is a chamfer also any good??

sorry for the questions

[Edited on 24/5/06 by tks]

---

I know this is an old topic, but why not use the "spare" switch on the connections to swap between a feed from the lighting and a loop feed from the switch side, instead of adding relays?
Example:

Common goes to led +
N/C goes to side lights
N/O goes to positive output of the switched circuit.

This way, the lights will be off in daylight and work if the switch is operated. At night the led will be on with the sidelights, but will also work if you switch it on.
You can use dimming resistors if you want to in the side light circuit.

Excellent idea - I have only just finished the wiring of my switches (without the dual brightness for now) and it occurred to me while checking the lighting circuits out at night, that the brightness of the switches is way too bright for night use - very distracting indeed. They are fine during the day however.

Presently I have my switches 'commoned' so they all feed from the side lights circuit, with another panel mounted led for a warning light - not the best solution but hey As you say, one easy way to reduce the brightness would be to insert a resistor in the feed, then use the redundant switches to bring the individual switch light to the full 12v (or as much voltage as required for the best light level) But that might require a diode or two to stop feeding the whole bank of switches wouldn't it so maybe individual resistors are the answer.

Surely it isn't neccessary to throw complicated electronics at this problem when we already have a second set of contacts on every switch?

My ideal would be as follows:

LIGHTS OFF

1. 100% brightness with switch on

LIGHTS ON

1. 40% brightness with switch off (fed from sidelights)

2. 80% brightness with switch is on


[Edited on 7-11-06 by RazMan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by k33ts

quote:

---

Originally posted by tks
well i'm going to do it different.

Going to hook every switch to a nice 5volts regulator wich will be powered by the light switch.

If the light switch is used then it will get powered by a 5volts xk ohm resistor.

Once used it will supply it self 5volts without the resistor from a 2nd reg.

the regulators will become the start dip etc. etc.

How is the radius of the button?
Or should i make a 3mm ally sheet where in the button will be placed?
in that way the ball could touch it??

and the 3mm sheet can be rounded up to 2,5mm radius right??

is a chamfer also any good??

sorry for the questions

[Edited on 24/5/06 by tks]

---

you almost sound dissapionted that i havnt got an led sticking out of the switch

your way tobe different you isnt making much sense can you add a picture in focus

---

Shouldn't need diodes as switch has a clean break between N/O to N/C, so no feedback possible.

Yes but it still wouldn't allow dual brightness at night would it? Or am I missing something?

Put a resistor in the sidelight feed to the switch/led.
On side lights the led will be dim. During the day, no led on unless you operate the switch or put on your side lights (as per your tintop).
When the switch is operated, you will get full brightness to warn you that it is on.
This will be bright at night when operated and dimmer when not.



savage switch


[Edited on 7/11/2006 by nitram38]

Nope, you lost me somewhere - here is a diagram of the bank of switches using a feed from the lights to give background lighting. If you activate one switch and apply 12v to one led (to give warning brightness), surely all of them will light up. You would therefore need two leds for each switch to achieve dual brightness (like K33ts' idea)


[Edited on 7-11-06 by RazMan]
Rescued attachment Circuit Diagram.jpg

Isn't that what I said?
Except, I have included a simple switching circuit provided by the spare contacts on the switch to swap from dim to bright operation, without the added use of relays as per earlier posts.
My way provides two levels of brightness which does not require extra leds, diodes or relays.
Plus no back feed as switch swaps over for each individual led, so no cross over of feeds.

All you need is the correct resistor for each led!


Description





[Edited on 7/11/2006 by nitram38]

Still think you will need a couple of diodes to stop backfeeding the other switches though - like Rusty's diagram.



That way each switch will only brighten its own led when activated (as a warning lamp) and not all of them.

I think we may be at cross purposes here - two levels of brightness is easy peasy but adding a third level for 'warning' (with lights on or off) is the tricky bit.

[Edited on 7-11-06 by RazMan]

One uses 1 Resistor the other uses per led one resistor wy?

else if switch isnīt operated the resistor value wonīt be the right one!!

and for every light wich isnīt operated the brightness (standby mode) will be increase...

Tks

That is correct.
During the day, you do not have lights on so led will be off.
If you operate the switch, you will get full brightness.
At night with side lights on, the leds will be dim because of the resistor.
If you operate the switch, then the led will brighten, letting you know that the switch is on.
It will be brighter than all the rest.
If you want too, you can put a bi-metal flasher in too so that it blinks aswell !

[Edited on 7/11/2006 by nitram38]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nitram38
If you want too, you can put a bi-metal flasher in too so that it blinks aswell !

---

After all that, what size resistor required?!

you cant! you wonīt be statisfied with the result!!

wy?

there is no static/constant value of leds wich are permanent in dim modus.

Tks

The resistors on my setup would not be shared. Each Led would have it's own one.

As to the flashing option (oooh er missis!), you could replace the led CLICK

Have you seen the size of the tiny led in a Savage switch? It looks like a really small dash-type bulb - I doubt that any 'normal' led would fit

Thinking about it, a bi-metal flasher wouldn't see enough current to flash would it, so it would have to be done with a electronic gizmo of some sort.

Maybe these will fit? Clicky

Just realised, that they would flash on the side light setting as well

[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nitram38
Put a resistor in the sidelight feed to the switch/led.
On side lights the led will be dim. During the day, no led on unless you operate the switch or put on your side lights (as per your tintop).
When the switch is operated, you will get full brightness to warn you that it is on.
This will be bright at night when operated and dimmer when not.



savage switch


[Edited on 7/11/2006 by nitram38]

---