monkeyarms
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posted on 30/6/11 at 06:53 PM |
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Mr Madinventions - help please, Ford ECU etc
Or any other Ford ECU gurus?
Fitted into my Sylva J15 I have a 1.4 zetec, key, ecu & loom all from my doner fiesta.
After reading this thread on the puma wiring and studying the
Ford TIS DVD i have arrived at the following -
Fuel pump drive - C1 pin 16
Ig pos II run - C1 pin 6
Ig pos III start- C2 pin 4
Pats wiring is uncut from my loom so should be ok.
Could i trouble you to check if you think the above are right to test fire the engine (i think it would be same as your 1.25 install?)
I am just double checking before connecting the battery, and your advice to others has really help me so far thanks
Many thanks
Richard
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mad4x4
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posted on 1/7/11 at 06:54 AM |
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Not sure if these will help this is the pinouts of ECU IV & ECU V IIRC
DuratecPinout 104
And
AUPCM6 Pinout (104)
and
ECU IV 60 Pin
Andy
[Edited on 1/707/11 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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monkeyarms
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posted on 1/7/11 at 05:00 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by mad4x4
Not sure if these will help this is the pinouts of ECU IV & ECU V IIRC
Images
Andy
[Edited on 1/707/11 by mad4x4]
Andy, thanks for the diagrams, but i cant quiet read them, any chance of bigger copies please?
Richard
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Madinventions
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posted on 3/7/11 at 12:27 AM |
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Hi Richard,
What year was your Fiesta? I'm now looking at the 96-99 Fiesta wiring diagrams on the TIS DVD to double check the connections. My 1.25 was a
96 base model and didn't have any extra like alarms, PAS, AC etc so the wiring loom was relatively simple.
Fuel pump:
C1/16 out to fuel pump via violet/orange wire. Check the inertia switch isn't activated (this caught me out once...)
Ignition key:
Start (pos III) grey wire to C2/4
Run (pos II) Vt/Og wire to C1/6. This feeds ECU pins 71 and 97 which are 'ignition +12v'
PATs transponder (just to check)
Pin 1 - Ye/Gn wire to C2/15. On the 1.25 this is connected to +12V, on yours it may be from pin 41 on the ECU?
Pin 2 - Bk/Gn wire to C2/14 (ground)
Pin 3 - Gy/Og wire to C2/12. This is connected to ECU pin 38.
Pin 4 - Wh/Gn wire to C2/13. This is connected to ECU pin 5.
One other thing to just check: Pre 05/98 gearboxes have a 'neutral' switch which connects ECU pin 64 (bn/wh wire) to ground. My 1.25
also had a 'clutch down' switch in parallel with this. If you have problems, it's worth a quick check to make sure that pin 64 is
connected to ground. See drgs: 29-03-007, 29-03-010 and 29-03-011.
You should hear the fuel pump run for about a second or so when the ignition is turned to pos II. It may also be helpful to connect the LED as
described in the thread you linked just in case there's a PATs issue?
From what I've seen, I think your connections are spot-on so I'll keep my fingers crossed that you get your engine to fire up first time!
Good luck!
Ed.
Mojo build diary: http://www.madinventions.co.uk
Solo music project: Syrrenfor http://www.reverbnation.com/syrrenfor
View my band website:
http://www.shadowlight.org.uk
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk/
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Strontium Dog
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posted on 3/7/11 at 12:51 AM |
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quote: Originally posted by monkeyarms
quote: Originally posted by mad4x4
Not sure if these will help this is the pinouts of ECU IV & ECU V IIRC
Images
Andy
[Edited on 1/707/11 by mad4x4]
Andy, thanks for the diagrams, but i cant quiet read them, any chance of bigger copies please?
Richard
Put your curser over the pics and they expand automatically
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x319/zephyr2000/General%20forum%20uploads/?action=view¤t=3DEngine.mp4
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monkeyarms
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posted on 3/7/11 at 09:28 AM |
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Strontium Dog - I meant even when i mouse over, they still look fuzzy to me!
Ed, My fiesta was registered 10/03/1998 and i think i remember it having a clutch switch, but I still have all the wiring looms, labled up, so I will
check to see what switch I have. I might still have the clock too.
My fiesta had PAS and I have been informed (thanks RichN) that i need to look for a PAS related connector that affects tick over.
It was last year when I stripped the fiesta so Im glad i labled and kept all the looms.
Many thanks for everyones help so far, I will let you know how i get on, finger crossed!
Richard
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monkeyarms
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posted on 3/7/11 at 07:37 PM |
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Failed to turn over
Well I tried to start my engine and it wouldnt turn over, so I will list what i have now..
On key Pos2 relays click into life, pos3 starter relay clicks but no turn over.
No fuel in tank (surely not needed to turn over?)
I have 12v to fuel pump on key pos 2, but no sound from pump, only relay sound from fuse box (would failed pump prevent turn over?)
I have 12v to C2 pin 5 when key at pos 3
I have located the clutch switch on my loom, it completes a circuit between C1 pins 4 and 5, tried both open and closed.
I am a little unsure as to the exact pin numbering convention on the ECU connector, but I can only find 1 bn/wt wire as shown in the picture, bottom
row 3rd from right, it tests as earthed ok.
Do I have a 60 pin ECU?
ecu connector
My PATS wiring is straight fom the loom from key antenna to C2 (also correct pins as per Eds post) although i did accidentally cut 1 wire and have
twisted it together temporarily (continuity tests ok).
Inertia switch ok (tried in both positions)
I have connected as many earths on the loom as i can see/find back to battery earth cable which also earths engine, lifted straight from doner fiesta.
checked all fuses = ok
tried both the keys i have.
Engine not siezed!
Battery seems ok, but I guess trying another/jumper cables from another car would be sensible?
[Edited on 3/7/11 by monkeyarms]
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Strontium Dog
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posted on 3/7/11 at 10:22 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by monkeyarms
Strontium Dog - I meant even when i mouse over, they still look fuzzy to me!
Richard
Oh bugger!
[Edited on 3/7/11 by Strontium Dog]
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x319/zephyr2000/General%20forum%20uploads/?action=view¤t=3DEngine.mp4
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Madinventions
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posted on 3/7/11 at 11:44 PM |
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Oh, that's a 60 pin ECU. All of mine were 104 pin versions. Anyway, the Ford drawings show the 60 pin variant so let's check a few
things.
Firstly, here's how the pin numbers run on your photo.
60 pin ECU pin numbers
I've gone through all of the Ford TIS drawings for a pre 05/98 ECU and drawn up a pinout:
1 Permanent +12v (og/ye)
2
3 Speed pulse signal (wh/rd) - I see yours is wh/bu though which is post 05/98 according to Ford...
4 Tacho pulse output to dashboard (wh/bk)
5 PATs transceiver (wh/gn)
6 A/C high pressure switch (bk/bu)
7 ECT coolant sensor (bk)
8 Fuel pump sense(?) Connected to output of fuel pump relay before inertia switch. (vt/bk)
9 MAF sensor (bn/bu)
10 To/from A/C system if fitted (vt/bu)
11 Cannister purge solenoid (bk/og)
12 Injector 1 (bk)
13 Cooling fan relay drive (bk/bu)
14 Injector 4 (bk)
15 Injector 2 (bk)
16 Ground (bk/ye)
17 'Data link connector' pin 13 (wh)
18 'Data link connector' pin 10 (bu/wh)
19 'Data link connector' pin 2 (gy/vt)
20 Ground (bk)
21 Idle speed control valve (bk)
22
23
24 Camshaft position sensor (bk)
25 Air temperature sensor (wh/vt)
26 Throttle position sensor reference(?) (bk)
27 +12V via F34 (if fitted). F34 fitted for high octane fuel. (wh/bk)
28 Power steering pressure switch (wh)
29
30 Camshaft position sensor (bk)
31 Extra high speed cooling fan relay drive for vehicles with A/C (bk/wh)
32 PATs immobiliser output connected to starter relay. Will be ground during cranking if PATs is ok. (bk/bu)
33 Lambda sensor signal (bk/ye)
34 Injector 3 (bk)
35
36 'Data link connector' pin 7. No wire colour listed.
37 Switched +12V power (vt/ye)
38 PATs transceiver (gy/og)
39 PATs transceiver (bk/og)
40 Ground (bk/ye)
41 PATs transceiver (ye/gn)
42
43 Neutral/clutch engaged switch (bn/wh)
44 Lambda sensor heater (wh)
45 Alternator (bk)
46 Sensor reference common (ground?) (common to many sensors) (bn/rd)
47 Throttle position sensor input (bk)
48
49
50 MAF sensor (wh/bu)
51
52
53 Fuel pump relay drive (bk/bu)
54 To/from A/C system if fitted (bk/ye)
55 Crankshaft position sensor (bk)
56 Crankshaft position sensor (bk)
57 Switched +12V power (vt/ye)
58 Coil pack drive for plugs 1 & 4 (bk/og)
59 Coil pack drive for plugs 2 & 3 (bk/gn)
60 Ground (bk/ye)
Drg 26-01-002 definitely shows ignition POS III going to C2 pin 4, not C2 pin 5. Is it definitely the starter relay clicking? If so, have you got
+12V onto the smaller wire on the starter motor when it should be cranking? F36 (60A) is the starter fuse. Could just be a duff starter relay?
Drg 29-03-014 shows the fuel pump wiring. Have you earthed the pump/sender assembly? F35 (10A) is the fuel pump fuse. The pump should spin up every
time the key is turned to POS II.
It's probably best for the pump to have a little fuel. Here's my coffee pot fuel tank I used for testing!
Coffee pot fuel tank
Does you ECU match up to the connection list above? It may be a Ford parts-bin-special because they changed over to slightly different wiring in
05/98.
Let me know how you get on. We'll get that engine running one way or another!
All the best,
Ed.
[Edited on 3/7/11 by Madinventions]
Mojo build diary: http://www.madinventions.co.uk
Solo music project: Syrrenfor http://www.reverbnation.com/syrrenfor
View my band website:
http://www.shadowlight.org.uk
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk/
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RichN
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posted on 4/7/11 at 11:19 AM |
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It will turn over without fuel.
I think that there are 2 possibilities:
1) The starter moter is seized. This happened on mine. Put the car in gear and rock it back and forward a couple of times, this cured it for me.
OR
2) The Immobiliser is not recognising the key. If you have the clock then connect it and earth it then look at the LED. If if goes out then all is
well, if it flashes rapidly then it's not picking up the key and won't start.
Let me know how you get on.
[Edited on 4/7/11 by RichN]
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monkeyarms
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posted on 4/7/11 at 04:31 PM |
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Thanks guys, I will check the things you have pointed out.
Ed the Ign Pos 3 pin5 was a typo, tired and rushing on computer etc, it was connected to pin 4
Rich I will look for the started thing, but on the clock, I do have it, BUT, that half of my loom is in a sorry mess at the moment. Would you (or Ed)
know how to splice the clock to the ecu/fuse box?
It will be a couple of days before I get in the garage again, but many thanks for you time and help so far guys.
Watch this thread for progress!
Richard
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RichN
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posted on 5/7/11 at 07:02 AM |
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Richard,
My Fiesta was a 1996 model, so you ought to double check this yourself on the TIS.
The clock had:
Og/BK which linked into OG/Ye (pin 6) - this is a permanent live
Vt/Wh into Vt/Ye (1) - Switched live from ignition position 1 (this illuminates the clock)
Bk (3) - Earth
Bk/Bu into Bk/Og (4) which is the LED.
The pins are from the Haynes manual so I would check them first as I found errors in their diagrams. If you can find the plug in your loom then this
would help for the connections.
I would imagine that you only need the LED and Earth to be connected.
Good luck.
Richard
[Edited on 5/7/11 by RichN]
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monkeyarms
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posted on 5/7/11 at 07:59 PM |
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small progress
Long story short, no +12v to starter motor (small wire)
connect clock - confirmed pats is happy
fuel pump ok now i pushed in tank connector on properly (oops!)
pin 43 on ecu test ok to ground - even ran a wire direct
fuse 36 ok
put car in gear and rocked lots to free starter motor if stuck
jumper leads from my focus to check duff battery
removed starter relay to check-
+12v to pin 3 on relay base ok
continuity from relay base pin 5 to starter motor ok
When i turn the ket to pos3 start, with my finger on top of the relay i can feel it click, but no power is going to the starter motor.
So i guess it is a faulty starter relay, but would it still click if faulty? I suppose i need a spare to check it, or can i test it ?
I feel im close now!
Cheers guy so far.
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monkeyarms
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posted on 6/7/11 at 12:26 PM |
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bugger
it isnt the relay, i tried 2 spare ones from the internal fuse box. unless all 3 are faulty.
I am at a bit of a loss now.
I guess going over all my connection and double checking everything is wise.
Any ideas guys ?
No 12v to starter motor is where im at.
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garybee
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posted on 6/7/11 at 01:01 PM |
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Surely if your starter relay is "clicking" but no feed is getting to the starter then it's either the feed to the relay (high
capacity side) or the feed from the relay to the starter.
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RichN
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posted on 7/7/11 at 06:57 PM |
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From my Haynes manual the Starter Relay has:
a Rd permanent live via F36 which is one of the yellow 60amp fuses.
Gy which is from the ignition switch
Bk/Ye which can be connected to Bk/Bu, this is to Earth
Gy/Bk to Bk/Ro to the starter motor.
As the relay is clicking then I would guess that you have not got Rd via F36 or Gy/Bk to the starter motor.
I hope this helps and you get started soon.
Richard
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monkeyarms
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posted on 7/7/11 at 08:03 PM |
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Progress of sorts
Well I have now got the engine to turn over, turned out to be the wire frim ECU to relay, I had accidentally cut when I decided to "trim a few
thing I dont need" off the engine loom. I am regretting that now!
Anyway, engine cranks over, fuel is at engine but not fired up.
I am going to study the TIS for wiring to coil pack to see if thats all ok. Anything else i could check guys?
Does the fuel system need "bleeding" or have i just made that up?
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big_wasa
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posted on 7/7/11 at 08:35 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by monkeyarms
Does the fuel system need "bleeding" or have i just made that up?
Just turning the ignition on and of will give you presure in the rail.
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RichN
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posted on 8/7/11 at 09:12 AM |
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When you turn the ignition on to Pos II do you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds? This gives it the initial pressure. I am guessing it does if
you have fuel at the rail.
You should not have to bleed the system at all.
So the next thing as you say is that there is no spark so it's the wires to the coil pack from the ECU.
There is a Power Hold relay that feeds Bk (Vt/Bu) wire via a Diode to the coil pack.
The coilpack is fired by Bk (Bk/Gn) for 2 of the cylinders and Bk (Bk/Og) for the other 2.
I would check for a spark in the plugs.
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monkeyarms
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posted on 8/7/11 at 11:02 AM |
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Yes ther fuel pump definatly works, with fuel at the rail.
So i will check the coil pack next, I feel I am really close now
Fingers crossed it might be running this weekend!
Thanks everyone so far
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monkeyarms
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posted on 9/7/11 at 02:53 PM |
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Still no start
I still havent got the engine to start. There is no spark at the plugs. So -
I have put a new coil pack on just in case.
There is 12v to the coil pack connector
The 2 wires from ECU to coil pack check ok for continuity
The ECU pin 43 clutch switch is directly earthed like Ed suggested
Cranks over on key pos3 fine
fuel to rail - ok
fuel pump - ok
PATS - ok
So it seems the ECU isnt telling the coils to fire. I am stuck now, i really don't know what to check next, or what to do
Thinking the worst, could the ECU be duff? Could i have damaged it with some ham fisted testing? It was working ok when stripped from doner, then
bubble wrapped and left alone in the shed for a year, untill now.
[Edited on 9/7/11 by monkeyarms]
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Madinventions
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posted on 10/7/11 at 04:58 PM |
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Those Ford ECU's are pretty resilient so I would think that it should be ok...
Have you checked your camshaft and crankshaft sensors?
It may also be worth getting one of the cheap OBD error code interfaces from eBay (search for ELM327) and see if there are any error codes in the ECU.
You'll get the standard 'cannister purge solenoid' fault probably but this doesn't stop mine working, and the error code may
shine some light on the issue?
Ed.
Mojo build diary: http://www.madinventions.co.uk
Solo music project: Syrrenfor http://www.reverbnation.com/syrrenfor
View my band website:
http://www.shadowlight.org.uk
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk/
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RichN
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posted on 10/7/11 at 05:36 PM |
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On Ed's advice I bought an OBD reader off Ebay (really for piece of mind), I get the canister purge registered but, as Ed says, it runs fine
without it, I've done 1300 miles now.
You say that you have 12 volts to the coilpack but are you firing the plugs. In my earlier post there are 2 other wires to the coil pack that are
connected to the ECU.
Also have you earthed the engine block to the chassis?
Keep trying, you're nearly there.
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monkeyarms
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posted on 10/7/11 at 06:27 PM |
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Ed, I havent checked the cam&crank sensors, what's the best way to check their function? I will check that the wires are ok. I will consider
a OBD tester too thanks.
Rich I have checked the 2 wires you mention, they test ok. My earth is the fiesta battery cable to engine, I don't have a specific chassis to
engine earth cable but the chassis is earthed via the mounts/bolts if that makes sense?
Can i just confirm chaps the fuel supply is the top connection on engine, with the return below it? I did mark these sort of things when I dismantled
the doner, but im doubting everything now!
many thanks chaps.
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RichN
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posted on 11/7/11 at 06:52 PM |
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Your fuel lines are correct. The top one is the supply (white Ford connectors) and the lower one the return (red Ford connectors).
I guess you will have to check all of your ECU wiring as per the diagrams and Ed's earlier post.
Have you got all of the ECU earths connected?
Keep us posted.
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