Alan B
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| posted on 2/5/03 at 07:22 PM |
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Digital dash
Hey guys, wasn't there a small UK company doing a budget priced digital dash?
Something like monsterautotech?
I tried the website, but it was down.....
Were they the guys?...or someone else?
Thanks.
Alan
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paulbeyer
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| posted on 2/5/03 at 09:27 PM |
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Alan,
Try (Custom Autotech) You will see from this link that they have jumped into bed with ETB Instruments.
Paul
7 out of 10 people suffer with hemorrhoids. Does that mean the other 3 enjoy them?
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 2/5/03 at 10:19 PM |
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that seems a lot of money for what it is.......this seems to be the kinda thing that any decent hardware / software person could do without
problems....
are there not a lot more on the market?
atb
steve
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Jasper
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 11:10 AM |
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Nothing that does half of what the digidash does for about 3 times the money.......
It may be a lot - but if it is then why aren't there lots of other cheaper ones on the market?????
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ChrisW
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 12:16 PM |
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The hardware itself is very cheap to make it's just the development time of the software that costs. I'll get around to building one one
day!
Chris
My gaff my rules
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Viper
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 12:26 PM |
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I remember seeing a dash especialy for kit cars had all the warning lights etc built in looked bloody good as well, but i will be buggered if i can
remember where it was...
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Alan B
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 12:45 PM |
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Paul,
Thanks, that's who I meant...
Guys,
Yes, agreed...what about something that just has the bare minimum features, for a budget price...?
Although I'm a mechanical design engineer, I'm interested in getting involved if someone wants to develop one?......must be some
mechanical issues to solve?
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Alan B
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 12:51 PM |
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Following on....what would be the minimum spec.?
Speed
RPM (+warning ?)
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
Anything else?
I'm obviously thinking US market, but do you guys have SVA specific requirements?
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sting
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 01:54 PM |
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Hi guys
I like the digi dash but i don`t understand how the rev counter would work?
Jasper can you enlighten me as i am thinking of like you getting one.
cheers
Sting
[Edited on 3/5/03 by sting]
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 04:29 PM |
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i had digi dash No 00002, its still in running with no probs at all, the rev counter is "numeric" for want of a better word, or in my case
reads 12600 then the limiter kicks in, to get the same spec from "stack" or the likes its nearer 2k.
lap timer.
0-60 timer
gear indicator
oil press
oil temp
water temp
fuel level
7 stage shift lights
speed
oddometer
warnings on all channels
Main beam
Fog
nutrual
indicator
ign
2 spare
data logging soft ware to hook up to pc....
ok, if you know what your doing it can be done cheaper i'm sure, but for £500 i could not get near it......
oh they now hook up to GPS too......
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Viper
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 04:57 PM |
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The stack systen is not realy ment for the road and costs a lot more because there is a lot more in it..
incuding the usuel stuff speed, revs, etc then you have all the data logging side of things like steering wheel movement, long and lat G force, pedal
movement, suspension travel and an array of sensors that makes the enterprise look tame.
I am not knocking the digi dash by any means but to compare the two on price alone is a bit unfair.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 07:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Paul,
Thanks, that's who I meant...
Guys,
Yes, agreed...what about something that just has the bare minimum features, for a budget price...?
Although I'm a mechanical design engineer, I'm interested in getting involved if someone wants to develop one?......must be some
mechanical issues to solve?
This is the sort of thing I could do. However its not worth the effort unless you know you are gonna sell some - I wouldnt spend time on one for my
car as the build takes up enuf time already!
The main issues I see are mechanical - you need a decent looking bezel to allow the thing to fit in the car and not look like crap!
atb
steve
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 07:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Following on....what would be the minimum spec.?
Speed
RPM (+warning ?)
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
Anything else?
I'm obviously thinking US market, but do you guys have SVA specific requirements?
Max speed attained
Min 0-60 time attained
Min 0-100 time attained
Rev Limiter
rev limited red and yellow lamps ala F1
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
MPG (uses fuel injector pulses)
Instantaneous MPG
Overspeed warning (anti speed cam)
Elapsed time
Elapsed Distance
Time
Temperature
atb
steve
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 3/5/03 at 08:44 PM |
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Viper all fair points n i know you aint knocking the digi dash.....but the "road" stack version that comes in at over 1k with the dreaded
VAT and all the "add ons" that you need to make it work, don't have half the spec.
the digi dash was originally built for race use by a RGB series racer and does all the things you mention for under 1k with the required upgrades, it
just got hijacked for road use too.
if you compare the two on price and spec in "roadgoing" form there is only one winner, same if you copare in "race" spec
too.
just had a peek at price, basic kit from £895, (ST800)
+ £100 for speed
+ £300 for lap timing
+ the dread'd VAT and it still don't come up to basic digidash spec.
Race spec £2445 +vat (ST8600M) and still falls short of race digidash spec needing "add ons" to get there.
i do agree the Stack looks much nicer though.
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Alan B
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| posted on 5/5/03 at 02:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Following on....what would be the minimum spec.?
Speed
RPM (+warning ?)
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
Anything else?
I'm obviously thinking US market, but do you guys have SVA specific requirements?
Max speed attained
Min 0-60 time attained
Min 0-100 time attained
Rev Limiter
rev limited red and yellow lamps ala F1
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
MPG (uses fuel injector pulses)
Instantaneous MPG
Overspeed warning (anti speed cam)
Elapsed time
Elapsed Distance
Time
Temperature
atb
steve
Steve, can all those functions be added without much cost increase to the basic product?...or is it just a one off firnware/software cost, with the
hardware not changing?
As for the bezel/housing etc.....shouldn't be a problem....but you are right, it's got to look good.....
If it looks good, is simple to fit/calibrate, and doesn't cost too much I can see a huge market......beyond the usual kit/trackcar etc.
E-mail me directly if you think it sounds interesting.
Alan B
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 5/5/03 at 03:13 PM |
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digtal dash
HI guys dont know if you remember the led RMP thread a bit back but based on the interest from that I am now writing the software for a RMP indicator
using LEDS which incorperates RMP limitor and launch control.
if there is further interest the hardware for this device can easily be adapted for a fully customisable dash unit incorperating an LCD display and
some indicator LED's. I have just finished the software for the basic device this weekend and I have already developed a suitable PIC board with
interfacing circuitry.
so if people are interested in more features like those already mentioned in this article then please say and I can build them into the device. Also
if there is someone out there with a rolling road I can build you a super chipped engine computor which would allow you to have customisable 3D engine
mapping to squease that extra BHP form the engine.
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 5/5/03 at 03:19 PM |
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it is very easy to calculate the engin RMP from the coil supply from the points/crank sensor
i.e just look for the 9v suply droping to 0v witch happens 8 time a secon at 500 rmp and 133 at 800rmp
But like I say if any one is intrested in more detail u2u me
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 07:54 AM |
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Hi all
I don’t know if you have read the RMP shift lights thread again but as I said there the RPM change lights system that I finished over the weekend
would be very easy to add the features that you are all talking about in the digital dash thread. And as I have now built the hardware and have the
software I would be interested in collaborating with some other builders if you can tell me what type of instruments you want to be able to use with
the device and how you what the out put to be displayed I can build theas features in to my existing device (aprox £50 or ~ $75). Below are a list of
features from the web site I will tell you what I do for each at present and ask some q’s about thowes I do not consider at present
RPM (+warning ?) + Rev Limiter + rev limited red and yellow lamps ala F1
This is presently monitored, with a LED shift light system, there is also a RPM limiting function as well as launch control.
Temperature + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported
Oil pressure + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported
Water temp + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported
Fuel level + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported i.e. seara
Max speed attained
Presently recorded
Min 0-60 time attained
Presently recorded
Min 0-100 time attained
Presently recorded
Overspee warning (anti speed cam)
This is presently implemented
MPG (uses fuel injector pulses) + Instantaneous MPG
Not presently implemented because engine I was building for was not injector based
Elapsed time + Time
Implemented in forms of a real time clock and a stop watch function
Elapsed Distance
Implemented but with a separate weal speed sensor
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
all channels could be logged but how long do you want to keep a history of the dater in the device and at what sort of sample rate I would go for
something like say 10 minuet history at 1 second sample rate.
Now how do you want the dater to be displayed i.e. LCD display + LEDs and how do you want to interface with the device as obviously buttons should be
kept to a minimum
The logged data would be extractable form the device using a program written by me and dumping the data in to a CSV (coma separated variables) file
format used by excel for easy graphing and analysis.
[Edited on 6/5/03 by ceebmoj]
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paulf
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 08:25 AM |
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How about adding a Lambda sensor and MAP sensor , if these were fitted the data logging facility may be able to be used as an engine tuning device in
place of a rolling road in the case of minor alterations to carbs etc.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Hi all
I don’t know if you have read the RMP shift lights thread again but as I said there the RPM change lights system that I finished over the weekend
would be very easy to add the features that you are all talking about in the digital dash thread. And as I have now built the hardware and have the
software I would be interested in collaborating with some other builders if you can tell me what type of instruments you want to be able to use with
the device and how you what the out put to be displayed I can build theas features in to my existing device (aprox £50 or ~ $75). Below are a list of
features from the web site I will tell you what I do for each at present and ask some q’s about thowes I do not consider at present
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
all channels could be logged but how long do you want to keep a history of the dater in the device and at what sort of sample rate I would go for
something like say 10 minuet history at 1 second sample rate.
Now how do you want the dater to be displayed i.e. LCD display + LEDs and how do you want to interface with the device as obviously buttons should be
kept to a minimum
The logged data would be extractable form the device using a program written by me and dumping the data in to a CSV (coma separated variables) file
format used by excel for easy graphing and analysis.
[Edited on 6/5/03 by ceebmoj]
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 08:40 AM |
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hi it would be quite easy to build it in to a 3d configurable engine mapping device.
However this would need to tuned in to each individual engine. Also the interface to the lambda and MAP sensor may be different from engine to engine
so I would want to have an engine in mined when designing the device unless I was to tack an off the shelf sensor i.e. one that can be obtained
cheaply by all and you where to adjust your exhausts to take the sensor.
Also we are now talking about a ECU (Engine Control unit) I would probably build this as a separate device to the digital dash but allow the two to
communicate over a bus probably CAN.
But basically what I am looking for is a list of features wanted from a digital dash and also a ECU I am presently well on the way to having the dash
finished. And when I have completed that I may work on the ECU however that will depend on the interest on hear.
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paulf
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 01:05 PM |
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My idea was not to use the device as an ECU but just to datalog the revs, manifold vacuum, and fuel air ratio to assist in setting up carbs etc.The
idea being to be able to look at the results of a run at set speeds on a graph to se the result of alterations on the road performance.Maybe engine
power could also be computed with a revs against time calculation in a set gear.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
hi it would be quite easy to build it in to a 3d configurable engine mapping device.
However this would need to tuned in to each individual engine. Also the interface to the lambda and MAP sensor may be different from engine to engine
so I would want to have an engine in mined when designing the device unless I was to tack an off the shelf sensor i.e. one that can be obtained
cheaply by all and you where to adjust your exhausts to take the sensor.
Also we are now talking about a ECU (Engine Control unit) I would probably build this as a separate device to the digital dash but allow the two to
communicate over a bus probably CAN.
But basically what I am looking for is a list of features wanted from a digital dash and also a ECU I am presently well on the way to having the dash
finished. And when I have completed that I may work on the ECU however that will depend on the interest on hear.
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Spyderman
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 01:55 PM |
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Personally I like the stack unit (ST800) with white display.
The Tacho is very clear and easy to see.
All the data logging that has been mentioned is very nice and useful, but could be done without for a basic system.
Essentials would be;
Speed,
RPM,
Mileage/trip (Odometer),
Water temp,
Oil pressure,
Fuel level,
Brake fluid warning light.
These are what I would consider the basic essentials. Anything after that would be a bonus!
The MPG taken from injector pulse would only be relevant to injected cars obviously, and as a lot of folk do away with the fuel injection for space
reasons, would therefore not really be that useful to everyone.
Would adding a fuel flow meter into fuel line complicate things or not?
This personally would not bother me as I'm using a 4AGE with the injection.
The systems suggested by Alan B and Steve sound ideal.
As ceebmoj suggests it would not really be practical due to variety of engine configurations to add engine management.
A separate computer would be best suited for this.
A fuel injected engine should not drift away from it's setting once done, but I can see the logic for a carb'd engine. However there are
fuel/air mixture ratio sensors available quite cheaply which is all you need.
Just my thoughts!
Terry
Spyderman
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 02:49 PM |
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Ok so what instrumentation do you guys want supported if you want supported i.e. ford rad temp sender. For other things i.e. throttle position pleas
also recommend a sensor that you would suggest. i.e. for example of throttle position pleas don’t just say potentiometer, recommend something like the
bosh fly by wire throttle peadle (£95 I think). If however if there are a number of you interested in a specific measurement I will also get some
other instrumentation made up. For example if there are a number of you out there who race who are interested in logging your suspension compression I
can make up the software for monitoring the suspension travel for all 4 springs using accelerometers (weight of wiring to each weal + 100g).
Temperature + warning
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
This is what I have working at present i.e. prototype hardware + software.
RPM + Rev Limiter + change leds + traction control
Speed
Max speed attained
Min 0-60 time attained
Min 0-100 time attained
Over speed warning (anti speed cam)
real time clock and a stop watch function
Elapsed Distance using a separate weal speed sensor i.e. not from box used also for traction control
So out of the eventual the only thing that would also need adding are the following
Fuel level,
Brake fluid warning light.
More of an aesthetics now but I was planning on using an LCD display 2 lines * 20 characters can also be used to represent filled bars e.g. gauges for
displaying the dater + some LEDs does any one else have any preferences hear
Cost of the devices at the moment is looking to be £50 (dependant on the total instruments supported and the type of display used) witch includes the
hardware pc link lead and pc soft ware witch allows you to change the configurable options.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 03:05 PM |
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sounds you are racing along with it.
My suggestions:
1. if you are proposing making a full blown fuel injection control system, these things are way more complicated than they seem, having to cope with
lots of variable factors and loads......beware rushing into this!
2. Things like oil pressure sensors and eng temp monitors, I would say could be done in two ways.
a. a simple switch - open or closed and b. a variable sensor, which varies resistance with pressure or temp - in this case why not 'learn'
cold / no oil pressure with engine at reast and idle, and 'hot' / normal pressure when car is at full running temp. you could scale these
as 0 - 100 % and show an over % when it goes past normal limits. There are so many different sensors out there I think you might be pushed to have a
fully calibrated system.
3. A two line LCD might be a bit restrictive. It would keep cost down, but I wonder if it would be better to have something more graphical, and able
to show more than a couple items at a time? Also, LCD units are not always great in full sun as an open topped seven would be. At least using a 2 line
lcd rather than a dot graphics lcd will give better contrast. You could as a minimum go up to a four line character panel - possibly 40 chars long
too.
The problem with character lcds is that they tend to have quite small digits. Some only 5 - 6 mm high. With a graphics panel you can make big numbers
and make them easier to see, but then you have the contrast issues.
Just my ideas,
atb
steve
BTW - beware of all the electrical noise in a car. The cpu module will have lots of wires to it all trying to inject crap into it and it can be quite
tricky maintaining reliability.
[Edited on 6/5/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 6/5/03 at 03:31 PM |
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Steve your suggestions are apreasheated
My suggestions:
1. if you are proposing making a full blown fuel injection control system, these things are way more complicated than they seem, having to cope with
lots of variable factors and loads......beware rushing into this!
This is not that complicated for a older engine I have also looked a some source code over the last weak for other engines and think that I can come
up with something at leased as good and in the case of real time engine mapping adaptation a lot better (tuning the engines characteristics while
running on the road hooked up to a lap top)
However I would admit that this is a secondary project that I would attempt after the dash and only if I had some one who was specifically interested
in this idea and prepped to pay a resoble amount for it.
2. Things like oil pressure sensors and eng temp monitors, I would say could be done in two ways.
a. a simple switch - open or closed and b. a variable sensor, which varies resistance with pressure or temp - in this case why not 'learn'
cold / no oil pressure with engine at reast and idle, and 'hot' / normal pressure when car is at full running temp. you could scale these
as 0 - 100 % and show an over % when it goes past normal limits. There are so many different sensors out there I think you might be pushed to have a
fully calibrated system.
As for the sensors I am aware of many different ways of measuring theas values however I would like to know what sensors you what i.e. a seara temp
sensot from the radiator. The reason for this is that each manafacture of sensors will probably used a different interface to the sensor. As for
having it fully calibrated I recon I can get the system reasonable accurate
3. A two line LCD might be a bit restrictive. It would keep cost down, but I wonder if it would be better to have something more graphical, and able
to show more than a couple items at a time? Also, LCD units are not always great in full sun as an open topped seven would be. At least using a 2 line
lcd rather than a dot graphics lcd will give better contrast. You could as a minimum go up to a four line character panel - possibly 40 chars long
too.
The problem with character lcds is that they tend to have quite small digits. Some only 5 - 6 mm high. With a graphics panel you can make big numbers
and make them easier to see, but then you have the contrast issues.
As you have mentchoned I chosen the 2*40 for cost reasons however I will look in to the cost of some other screans and tell you all hear, incedently I
was planning on using a back lit item that would have a feed from the lighting circuit to enable the back light.
As for electrical noise the CPU will be opto isolated (and other isolation as required for signal conditioning) form the car electric systems so there
will be no wores there. I am using the packaging/conectors that BMW ECU comes in (had one lieing about). The devices power supply had some heavy
protection on it as well (for starting the engin). All inter cuicitry is done using can bus (designed for automotive aplications).
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