cliftyhanger
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 08:48 AM |
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I used a raceline water rail on my last setup.
After initial problems, I used a seal cap rather than conventional rad cap on it. The small outlet just below the cap I ran to a header tank, and the
bottom outlet from the header went to the bottom rad hose. I also has a 4mm hole in the thermostat.
That sorted the cooling perfectly. No issues at all.
However, I agree teh "best" solution is the original thermo housing on the back of the engine, but the rail can work just fine.
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jeffw
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 09:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
We get it Paul Turner & British Trident. The Ford solution is better and we are all idiots for using the Raceline waterrail.
However telling the OP over and over again he is an idiot for using the Raceline waterrail in a evangelical way isn't helping his issue with his
waterrail.
When have British Trident and myself ever called anyone an idiot, please show us and if you cannot please apologise.
For good measure I have reported your post.
The OP has an issue and its the same issue many people have had using the Raceline water rail. When I fitted the Zetec I favoured the Raceline rail
simply because of its looks and ease of plumbing but after taking to several owners and reading about issues (mainly on the Westfield site) I took the
decision to use the Ford housing, a decision I have not regretted.
The Retro Ford water rail appears to be a good solution for installations with limited space and it does incorporate the correct thermostat in the
correct position with the provision of a bypass circuit. Never used one so no idea if it works.
[Edited on 11/8/15 by Paul Turner]
Feel free to report it, you are being very strident with your views on this and I'm certainly not going to apologies for paraphrasing your
responses as calling us "idiots", even if you didn't use the word it was certainly inferred.
For the record I have used the Raceline Waterrail on the Phoenix for the last 4 years without an issue.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 09:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Feel free to report it, you are being very strident with your views on this and I'm certainly not going to apologies for paraphrasing your
responses as calling us "idiots", even if you didn't use the word it was certainly inferred.
So you admit that we did not call the OP an idiot.
Then you go on to say "even if you didn't use the word it was certainly inferred"
Nothing was inferred as you well know, we are just trying to help the OP.
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Rena
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 07:49 AM |
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I´m just interested in how to get my waterrail working and give it a try.
If it doesn´t work - well, then I have to change to the original Ford solution.
However, I will give it a try. I´m not a mechanin, that´s why I ask a lot of "stupid" question.
OK - we have come to the conclusion my waterpump is correct. Next step is to check my plumbing. Below there is a simple sketch how my plumbing is done
at the moment, which a tought was correct, but unfortunately not.
How should it be done?
The thermostat I have come from Raceline and I have no idea how many degrees. I know there are at least one bypass hole. If I want to buy another
thermostat, which one will suit?
THANKS!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 11:46 AM |
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The hole in the theromostat is bleed hole, by-pass is much larger flow that by-passes the radiator.
Enlarged multiple bleed holes will allow the thermostat to sort of work but aren't a substitute for by-pass circulation.
Since about 1970 until quite recently 100% the by-pass flow on Fords has been a continuous through the heater matrix from the cylinder head back to
the water pump. This type of heater controls the heater outlet temperature by flaps and is called an air blending heater . Older car designs
used a water valve controlled heater.
If a water valve heater or no heater is fitted in a home build car an alternative path for the by-pass flow has to be provided.
[Edited on 12/8/15 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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adithorp
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 12:35 PM |
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Ignoring the debate over whether the water rail is any good (and I agree it's not and you should have a by-pass flow, but keep repeating that
isn't advancing the discusion)...
Your diagram should work providing your rail cap is a blanking type (flat behind the top). The rail is a dead end when the stat is closed but with a
bleed hole(s) there should be enough flow for it to open/close once hot (even if that is sluggish).
Given you're experiencing apparent over cooling, the first thing to check is the actual engine temps with an IR thermometer. That way yo know
that it's not just the guage misreading. Also compre the temp at the engine block and end of the rail and the rad. As the temp sensor is as
remote as the stat, if there's no flow, the engine could be hot but the guage be cold (and stat shut).
Second (if engine, stat/sensor and rad are similar) it could be your stat is stuck open, too low a temp or the beed holes are alowing too much flow
through, giving constant radiator cooling.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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r1_pete
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 12:44 PM |
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This is a cut and paste from a similar thread, the only thing I will add is that I did drill one 3mm hole in the stat rim, which provided enough flow
to heat the bulb on the stat. In the 6 or so years since I built it, the car has toured Europe, in hot and cold climates, gone through 2 owners, both
of which have been in regular contact, and both have said the cooling system has never given a moments trouble.
This is how I plumbed my zetec / raceline, and it worked perfect, and is still fine the new owner has dome several thou UK and Europe.
This is a header tank installation, an expansion tank works in a subtly different way.
Raceline cap is a plain type Austin 1300
Header tank is some BMW and incorporates the pressure cap, I think I have another one of these if you want it.
Pipe from just below the raceline cap to the small connector on the pressure side of the tank, this keeps the block / rad full, and bleeds the air
out too.
Bottom hose to the bottom of the header tank.
Pressure cap on tank must be the highest point of the cooling system, otherwise steam will form at the highest point and force water out of the
pressure cap, due to localised overheating & increased pressure as the steam pockets build, hence with the pressure cap at the highest point the
steam pocket builds in the tank and there is no localised overheating, provided the block is vented properly, and the pipe from the raceline neck to
the header tank does this.
 
Description
With your overcooling issue, look to the thermostat, it is clearly not opening and closing properly to regulate engine temperature, try restricting /
clamping one of the rad hoses, and see how much quicker your motor warms, that is effectively what the stat does.
[Edited on 12/8/15 by r1_pete]
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Rena
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 01:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Ignoring the debate over whether the water rail is any good (and I agree it's not and you should have a by-pass flow, but keep repeating that
isn't advancing the discusion)...
Your diagram should work providing your rail cap is a blanking type (flat behind the top). The rail is a dead end when the stat is closed but with a
bleed hole(s) there should be enough flow for it to open/close once hot (even if that is sluggish).
Given you're experiencing apparent over cooling, the first thing to check is the actual engine temps with an IR thermometer. That way yo know
that it's not just the guage misreading. Also compre the temp at the engine block and end of the rail and the rad. As the temp sensor is as
remote as the stat, if there's no flow, the engine could be hot but the guage be cold (and stat shut).
Second (if engine, stat/sensor and rad are similar) it could be your stat is stuck open, too low a temp or the beed holes are alowing too much flow
through, giving constant radiator cooling.
Good idea to check temperature with a IR-thermometer. I have a IR-camera at work, will check this weekend.
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Rena
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 01:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
This is a cut and paste from a similar thread, the only thing I will add is that I did drill one 3mm hole in the stat rim, which provided enough flow
to heat the bulb on the stat. In the 6 or so years since I built it, the car has toured Europe, in hot and cold climates, gone through 2 owners, both
of which have been in regular contact, and both have said the cooling system has never given a moments trouble.
This is how I plumbed my zetec / raceline, and it worked perfect, and is still fine the new owner has dome several thou UK and Europe.
This is a header tank installation, an expansion tank works in a subtly different way.
Raceline cap is a plain type Austin 1300
Header tank is some BMW and incorporates the pressure cap, I think I have another one of these if you want it.
Pipe from just below the raceline cap to the small connector on the pressure side of the tank, this keeps the block / rad full, and bleeds the air
out too.
Bottom hose to the bottom of the header tank.
Pressure cap on tank must be the highest point of the cooling system, otherwise steam will form at the highest point and force water out of the
pressure cap, due to localised overheating & increased pressure as the steam pockets build, hence with the pressure cap at the highest point the
steam pocket builds in the tank and there is no localised overheating, provided the block is vented properly, and the pipe from the raceline neck to
the header tank does this.
Description
With your overcooling issue, look to the thermostat, it is clearly not opening and closing properly to regulate engine temperature, try restricting /
clamping one of the rad hoses, and see how much quicker your motor warms, that is effectively what the stat does.
[Edited on 12/8/15 by r1_pete]
YOur plumbing looks like mine, except for my bleed from the radiator.
It looks like there are problems with my thermostat. Which on should I buy? Is it a regular Mondeo thermostat?
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 01:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rena
It looks like there are problems with my thermostat. Which on should I buy? Is it a regular Mondeo thermostat?
Normal fitment to a Raceline water rail is the X-Flow type stat. A Mondeo stat is a totally diferent design and will not fit.
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r1_pete
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 01:18 PM |
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I used an MGB 88 degree thermostat, not by design, it was just as I wanted to see if the hole in the rim would work, it did, and I never bothered
opening it up to replace it with a new one. Any 54mm stat without the bypass close off disc should do you.
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Rena
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| posted on 14/2/16 at 05:15 PM |
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Before the sensor starts, I have decided to replace my water rail with the original thermostat housing. I hope there are enough space, but are there
different original housings? Maybe different sizes that works with my 2,0 litre zetec.
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big_wasa
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| posted on 14/2/16 at 08:21 PM |
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The best stat housing is the very early silver top one found on an Orion. It's alloy. Forget this one as you won't find one.
Next best is the silver top. Next best is the early black top. Worst is the last of the black tops. They cut corners, they leak and fail.
Main difference in the rest is the sensor bosses.
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Rena
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| posted on 15/2/16 at 11:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
The best stat housing is the very early silver top one found on an Orion. It's alloy. Forget this one as you won't find one.
Next best is the silver top. Next best is the early black top. Worst is the last of the black tops. They cut corners, they leak and fail.
Main difference in the rest is the sensor bosses.
NEW FORD ESCORT MK4 MK5 MK6 FIESTA MK3 MK4 SIERRA 1.8 D ALLOY THERMOSTAT HOUSING
Will this one fit?
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 15/2/16 at 04:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rena
NEW FORD ESCORT MK4 MK5 MK6 FIESTA MK3 MK4 SIERRA 1.8 D ALLOY THERMOSTAT HOUSING
Will this one fit?
It will fit a diesel perfectly. But it won't fit a Zetec. The clue is in the "1.8 D".
You need a trip round your local scrapyards.
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GRBBONGO
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| posted on 15/2/16 at 10:25 PM |
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Raceline water rail works 100% spot on. It just needs to be plumbed in correctly with non pressure rad cap replacing the pressure rated one they
supply. If you take a look on the other raceline thread below this one on the main menu I have added pics showing exactly how it needs to be. I got
all this info from an article in a previous Westfield newsletter. Trust me it works and looks lovely too. 700 miles and no problems so far. My fan
sensor switch is wired/plumbed into the rad housing between the inlet and outlet.
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HowardB
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| posted on 16/2/16 at 06:57 AM |
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here's a standard zetec one
 
thermostat-1
 
thermostat-2
hope that helps 
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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Rena
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| posted on 16/2/16 at 07:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
here's a standard zetec one
thermostat-1
thermostat-2
hope that helps
Thanks, could you measure the thickness?
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HowardB
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| posted on 16/2/16 at 07:55 AM |
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I think it's about 80mm or so.
Part back in the depths of the frozen garage
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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Rena
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| posted on 7/3/16 at 08:27 AM |
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Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 7/3/16 at 10:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing
proper.
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Rena
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| posted on 7/3/16 at 10:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing
proper.
Thanks - i didn´t have a rubber-seal last season, maybe that´s why I got problems with my water rail....It could be one reason.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 7/3/16 at 12:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing
proper.
Thanks - i didn´t have a rubber-seal last season, maybe that´s why I got problems with my water rail....It could be one reason.
ISTR The Raceline hotter rail was intended for standard tradditional Biritish/US pattern thermostats (as per MGB, Mini, Spitfire, Viva and
Xflo) that don't use a rubber seal, the rubber seal is only used on engines with a much smaller dameter thermostat eg Pinto & Rover K.
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Rena
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| posted on 7/3/16 at 12:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing
proper.
Thanks - i didn´t have a rubber-seal last season, maybe that´s why I got problems with my water rail....It could be one reason.
ISTR The Raceline hotter rail was intended for standard tradditional Biritish/US pattern thermostats (as per MGB, Mini, Spitfire, Viva and
Xflo) that don't use a rubber seal, the rubber seal is only used on engines with a much smaller dameter thermostat eg Pinto & Rover K.
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
Hmmm-.....two different answers, as always when talking about water rail.....
Is there anyone in this thread who is running raceline rail with sealing around the thermostat?
[Edited on 7/3/16 by Rena]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 7/3/16 at 01:47 PM |
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I am extremely puzzled as to why you should think that would have any positive effect? The problem with the Raceline part is the therrmosat and
temperature sensor(s) are located where there is non continuous water circulation, this is what plumbers and heating engineers call a "dead
leg".
Water is not a good conductor of heat, because it has a high specific heat capcity it is very good transfering heat but to do that it needs to flow
from the hot region to the cooler area. The design flaw in the Raceline water it is as supplied there is no coolant flowing over the thermostat when
the thermostat is closed, by drilling the thermostat it is possible to get enough flow over the thermostat bulb to get it to work after a fashion but
the water temperature will fluctuate especially in the bottom half of the engine.
It is thermodynnamics but it isn't rocket science, think of your household hot water system, the tank can be near boiling but the hot water tap
in the kitchen is cold unless the tap is running.
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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