Custardtart
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 posted on 25/11/08 at 01:45 PM |
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Which Race Series
If you raced in the 750mc Locost series what race series would you see as a natural progression or "next step" and why?
I'm not saying that people who race in the series always want to move somewhere else, but if you did, I'm interested in where you'd
want to go and why.
Cheers
CTR
They're only noodles
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matt.c
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 08:30 PM |
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Got to be something like the RGB's. It really depends on how deep your pockets are?
The RGB's are a little more expensive but a fair bit quicker. You could always go for the single seater route but then you are looking at even
bigger budgets and even sponsers.
What do you like best? Tintop, Open wheelers etc?
Obviously i have no experience in motorsport so take what i say with a pinch of salt. 
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Custardtart
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 09:09 PM |
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I'm not looking for a series, the question should be taken at face value ie. what do you guys who race in the Locost series see as the next step
and why.
Do Locost racers see the RGB series as a natural progression or how about Kits which are now just as quick but (in theory) cheaper?
Or how about another one make series like Ginetta?
They're only noodles
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procomp
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 08:50 AM |
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Hi
This crops up amongst the drivers as a discussion quite a few times.
Drivers that have moved onward has seen them move into KIts RGB Formula 4 and Formula Vee within the 750mc. The exception was of course piers Ward who
went to British GT and Le-mans 24hr and Daniel Lee Stevens who went to the Seat cupra cup championship. But they are slightly out of the budget range
for most.
The trouble is that once you have done a season in the locosts which admitadly are not the fastest with top speeds of 100 and a bit but they have such
close competitive racing ( Top 10 - 15 covered by a second in qualifying ) that you are struggling to find another championship that can deliver the
same adrenalin pumping action at sensible money.
It is certainly an interesting topic for discussion though. Now wheres all them Locost racers. You watch just like the racing there will be 10 of
them all together soon. 
Cheers Matt
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simes43
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 09:38 AM |
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At least three to four of us would go to G20's if Ginetta droped the high level of imposed costs.
We like the sealed nature of the series.
The beauty of the Locost series is there is no bottomless pit to how much money you can spend. Racing against 2k a corner Penske shocks or throwing
£500 of tyres at the car each weekend does not appeal.
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Custardtart
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 11:53 AM |
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That's interesting.
I'm wondering why there doesn't seem to be a natural progression from Locost which has such a strong customer base. Locost is potentially
the ultimate club level feeder series.
I'd have thought a one make series with sealed engines of arund 150/160bhp and say, a 600kg weight limit plus no alloy dampers and limitations
on brakes, gearboxes etc would possibly attract a number of Locosters?
If you look aruond the only ones I can think of are Ginetta or Westfield although didn't Tiger have a series going? Don't know if it still
exists?
They're only noodles
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simes43
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 01:11 PM |
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The Caterham feeder series work well. Being able to buy bits to upgrade your existing car to race in the next level is a good idea.
The locost itself does not lend itself to another series, unless, as stated above, you start one.
With the minor costs involved in making a Locost a front runner, driver ability makes a significant difference to results.
For those looking at kits/rgb etc, learning race craft and car control in a competitive series before hand makes sense.
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 01:33 PM |
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Some friends of mine have done a 2 year stint in the Ginettas but eventually had to give it up due to the relatively high costs. They said the racing
was great, and the level of driving pretty high, but unless you could maximise the benefits of the (limited) TV and media coverage or had significant
cash resources then it was very hard to progress.
Personally I'd like to do something like RGB but with a single class and sealed engines. I've learnt from 6 years in Locost that the
biggest cost but biggest performance gain (specifically in terms of pure pace, not race results) is under the bonnet and I'd like to change
that. I've talked to Matt (procomp) many times about sealed standardised engines but he's explained that there are some issues with that,
and also I think some people feel it takes away from the original 'DIY' philosophy behind the Locost series. I'd counter that it
still adheres to the low budget side of that philosophy, but I do see what they mean.
At the least I'd like to have our series renamed, as "Locost" just doesn't sound 'cool'. It has history and does
relate to what the formula is about but Formula (Ron) Champion would be better, don't you think?
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progers
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 03:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Palin
Personally I'd like to do something like RGB but with a single class and sealed engines. I've learnt from 6 years in Locost that the
biggest cost but biggest performance gain (specifically in terms of pure pace, not race results) is under the bonnet and I'd like to change
that.
Hi Rob,
I run in RGB and what you are asking for above is called Class C in RGB. Everyone runs a standard fireblade engine in that class and even getting a
blueprinted engine from Andy Bates will be less than getting a blueprinted locost engine.
Obviously there is a variation in chassis that can be used but typically racing is very close between fury/phoenix/westfield cars that are out there.
Its more about driver talent as much as anything - Derek Jones won the championship in an old live axled Fisher Fury he paid 7K for.
The only downside is that you run in a field with other more powerful cars, so race victories are unlikely. Having said that, with bigger grids we
have on occasion split the grid into two races with class C having a grid of its own.
Regardless of this, we always have a presentation at the end of the race meeting where each of the class winners (+ 2nd and 3rd) get presented with
their trophies. Getting a pot in class C carries a good amount of Kudos as its known as the toughest class to win historically. Another bonus is that
their ain't half the bitching that goes on in Locost - we are lovely nice cuddly people who race for fun (mostly, anyway..)
Cheers
Paul
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progers
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 04:05 PM |
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Racing in Class C video
Here's a great video of how close the racing is in class C. The video is taken from a STM Phoenix, and features Raw Fulcrum (Tim Gray),
Westfield (John Cutmore) and a yellow Fury - all class C cars. Unfortunately race was spoiled by a Red flag incident.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oqOGKWHdQc8
- Paul
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simes43
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 04:16 PM |
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The main problem with sealed engines are the usual single supplier issues and the performance of different units.
2K for a race engine from Randall etc is a very low barrier to entry.
Glad you touched on the name "issue" Rob!
Although we secured the spare sponsorship from the HotHatch's it has held back the quest to find a proper series sponsor for years.
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Custardtart
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 06:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by simes43
The main problem with sealed engines are the usual single supplier issues and the performance of different units.
2K for a race engine from Randall etc is a very low barrier to entry.
Glad you touched on the name "issue" Rob!
Although we secured the spare sponsorship from the HotHatch's it has held back the quest to find a proper series sponsor for years.
I didn't know you had a sponsor for the Locost series, i used to race in Kits and don't remember when we last had one! What do you get
from them and what do they get out of it?
They're only noodles
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 08:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by progers
Hi Rob,
I run in RGB and what you are asking for above is called Class C in RGB. Everyone runs a standard fireblade engine in that class and even getting a
blueprinted engine from Andy Bates will be less than getting a blueprinted locost engine.
Obviously there is a variation in chassis that can be used but typically racing is very close between fury/phoenix/westfield cars that are out there.
Its more about driver talent as much as anything - Derek Jones won the championship in an old live axled Fisher Fury he paid 7K for.
The only downside is that you run in a field with other more powerful cars, so race victories are unlikely. Having said that, with bigger grids we
have on occasion split the grid into two races with class C having a grid of its own.
Regardless of this, we always have a presentation at the end of the race meeting where each of the class winners (+ 2nd and 3rd) get presented with
their trophies. Getting a pot in class C carries a good amount of Kudos as its known as the toughest class to win historically. Another bonus is that
their ain't half the bitching that goes on in Locost - we are lovely nice cuddly people who race for fun (mostly, anyway..)
Cheers
Paul
Hi Paul,
Yes I've eyed class C enviously for some time now (and even smashed open my piggy bank to see if I could afford your car - but I can't) .
The thing that puts me off is the class system. I don't want to have the race of my life, beat everyone else in my category and still finish
10th overall. It just doesn't seem right. I do love the cars though, especially the noise, and have the sound of that Mallory race video of
yours playing in the background as I write this!
We can match or beat that level of closeness in Locost (see the Mallory vid on my work-in-progress website here: www.locost47.f2s.com/) but neither
the cars nor the formula as a whole is very, err, 'sexy', for want of a much better word.
Simes is right in that £2k for a race engine is still not so bad compared to some other formulae, but it seems wrong to me to get a £20 knacker off
e-bay then invest £2k+ in making it worth using. Doing so, however, seems to be critical to success.
Custardtart - I knew we had a series sponsor (sort of) but haven't seen or heard any real sign of them except for being firmly told that we
should put their stickers on our cars and be glad to do it. I think we can get cheaper tyres from Demon Tweeks now, though everyone gets them still
cheaper from George Polley anyway, don't they?
[Edited on 26/11/08 by Rob Palin]
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progers
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| posted on 27/11/08 at 11:11 AM |
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Hi Rob,
I can understand your point about not winning races even though you have had the drive of your life. However, if you look at the RGB results you will
see that Class C cars have been in the top 3 on several occasions, its surprising how quick they are (mid 52's lap time around Brands Indy for
example). It was certainly nip and tuck between me and the leading class C guys all season.
A note on engine costs - a replacement R1 engine for me cost £500. The original engine which has lasted me 3 seasons cost £1200 including all
electrics etc. Blades will be similar money or even cheaper. As the bike engines are so highly tuned anyway, there is little gain to be had by having
them prepped by a specialist and spending $$. The most effective gains are just a good airbox and manifold design. Get them right and the car will be
competitive (just chassis setup and driving skills after that....).
I agree initial entry cost might be a barrier for some but I know of several good class C cars that will be in the 6K - 7K area, not that much more
than a good locost really. Derek Jones' ex championship winning car is one of them for sale at the mo.
I agree you can't get much closer racing than in locost, however I think Class C is probably the next best thing and is an absolute hoot when
you figure in the performance of the cars. As you can tell I'm biased :-)
All the best
Paul
P.S. The race video was from Alistair Boulton (not me). He's an ex stock hatch man and absolutely loving his time in RGB. I managed to keep
ahead of the scrap
[Edited on 27/11/08 by progers]
[Edited on 27/11/08 by progers]
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mawmaw
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| posted on 8/12/08 at 07:13 PM |
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which series
Hold on a minute guys!!!!!!
Now no-one has come on and spoke about the kit series. If there is an obvious challenger for "obvious follow on from locost" it is our
series. This is an interesting series BECAUSE it is so varied. There have been outright winners from each of the 3 classes this year. There is one car
with "an unfair" advantage but i bet it wouldn't win driven by anyone else and he has never won without a fight.
It is clearly different to locost racing but in many ways that is part of the appeal. Because you can always blame the car if you don't win you
are hopefully a bit saner and less desparate at your overtaking. Well obviously he is a/ cheating, b/ got a faster car, c/ spends more money than me
is a better moan than "well actually i am not as good a driver as him.
Like another commentator on this forum who may or may not recognise himself i like having a car with an unfair advantage over other cars which given
either better driving skills or reliabililty would be winning overall/ championships. So any of the 3 classes in kits would be a great idea, i would
obviously be happy if you chose a slower 1600 than mine!
mark
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blackie
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| posted on 9/12/08 at 08:32 AM |
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Like Mawmaw, I considered Kits to be the natural progression to Locost, but the myriad of alternative engines really does put me off.
To compete in a series, I need to know that the engine I'd invest in would give me the potential to be a front runner & would allow me to
compete on a like-for-like footing with others in my class. I just dont think Kits offers this at the moment, especially with the addition of
Duratecs - I see the Class C cars (the only real alternative in Kits to Locost) moving back down the field - hopefully it will sort itself out in a
couple of years.
All the best,
DB
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gixermark
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| posted on 30/12/08 at 02:31 PM |
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i think striker are getting a one make/engine yightly controlled series up off the ground for '09 ?? it coudl be interesting..
but i agree with all the comments on RGB - serious bang for buck.. and seem a very nice bunch of guys and gals
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procomp
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| posted on 31/12/08 at 03:55 PM |
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Hi.
Yep Raw striker have been given the go ahead for a class within the 750mc Kits. But the trouble is that the spec of the car and the cost just do not
add up. It's all just standard road spec with the 2.0L blacktop engine with a type 9 box with a longer first ratio. The trouble is that any one
looking at that sort of class will find that the Westfield Aero race car Class in the BARC westfield championship works out 4k cheaper. The engine
specs are the same and except for the taller first ratio so are the gearboxes.
But when comparing the cars and where they fall in the championships it,s a no brain er. The westfield is a track focused car with many uprated parts
on it that is capable off winning the race outright against the other runners in the championship. Where as the RAW gives you a bogo car where you
will be running midfield at best. Those that have already driven the Demo car Have commented on the lack of handling compared to the RACE version of
the striker. Can't really see where RAW is heading with the package and pricing it makes no sense compared to the Westfield package.
What the 750 should have done to get the number on the grid or at least keep the 5-6 drivers who are walking from the championship interested was to
have used the engine and gearbox package from RAW but allowed any of the drivers to fit it into any of the cars. Effectively re creating the old
RELIABLE class c zetec which is now left as slightly quicker than it used to be but highly unreliable. If this was to happen they would keep 5-6
drivers who are walking instead of having to find 5-6 NEW drivers just to stand still.
Just my 2P worth.
But hey we now have the MAGNIFICENT SEVENS CHALLENGE for some value for money racing if you have a seven type car. BEC or CEC cars welcome in the same
race.
Cheers Matt
[Edited on 31/12/08 by procomp]
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Custardtart
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| posted on 2/1/09 at 01:22 PM |
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Yeah it does seem that Kits has exploded up it's own ar*e in a spectacular way!
The class system is ridiculous in it's complexity and the only real way of winning the series is to own a Taydec (50+ wins/class wins out of a
possible 56 over the last few years) - but you try and get hold of one! 
Respect to MawMaw as a driver for getting close but realistically even if you spend 10K on a dogs bollo*ks engine you're still unlikely to be
winning and surely that is not and should not be the market that Kit's is aiming at!?
You just can't have a supposedly low cost series that reqiures an engine & gearbox rebuild every other race and the only car that's
winning is effectively a one off special!  
Sevens only series sounds interesting?
They're only noodles
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mawmaw
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| posted on 3/1/09 at 06:37 AM |
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which series
Questions questions
Matt has raised a few interesting points which are worthy of comment. Kits has lost its way ever since the advent of both Locost and BEC. Apart from
showing my age what that shows is you cannot succeed with a series which is called "a championship for everything else in the kit car world
which isn't a caterham, a locost or a BEC."
THe only thing in my view that would restore the series is an economic downturn so severe as to decimate the BEC grids so no only would the caterhams
join the kits (check out this years kit car regs) but also the BECs then Matts series would happen.
There are regional championships who do this already, a Lydden series, a welsh series, a northern series and a scottish series but no national
series. This is a real shame and perhaps the best hope for one would be if Palmer would extend his winter series, run it at Snet, Brands, Cadwell and
Oulton and maybe change it to a summer series.
I am lucky at least my car is road registered so at least i can use it when the kit car series finally dies, i predict some time in the next 2 years
....
mark
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mawmaw
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| posted on 13/1/09 at 10:19 PM |
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bit slow just spotted the 10k engine ref. This is probably my budget for 8 engines so does that mean mine are about £1200 quid each? Sounds about
right as i have never paid more than £275 for a base and until recently £80 paid for pockets in the pistons and all the other bits came of the
remnents of the expolded engine, now wait a minute, if i had spent 8k in the first place i would have won 2 championships and would be 2k up, now why
didn't i spot that! thanks CT for pointing that out
[Edited on 13/1/09 by mawmaw]
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