daniel mason
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 05:20 PM |
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what do you think of the automatic braking systems in some new cars?
has anyone had any experience with the automatic braking systems in some new cars? (ford focus etc) if the car can detect a car in front of you
suddenly braking,and can brake with a faster reaction time than the driver. whats stopping you getting smahed up the rear by the vehicle following
you? especially if you have kids in the back!
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morcus
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 05:27 PM |
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that is a good point, one I'm sure manufacturers would answer by calling for the system to be mandatory (Which from what I hear it could become
in the US).
I've never used the system but I find if you play racing games with automatic braking turned on (Like F1 2010) sometimes you forget your
actually driving at all because the car is doing so much itself which is probably a bigger risk considering most deaths from crashes are single
vehicle accidents and your likely to crash into a ditch where the brakes won't help you.
anyone on here actually experienced it?
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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Paul (Notts)
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 05:48 PM |
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The system should only work if you were about to hit the car in front and were very late braking yourself. In which case you have to hope the idiot
behind you was not as close to you as you were to the car in front.
Paul
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 05:52 PM |
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One more reason for people to drive with thier brain switched off.
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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tegwin
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 06:44 PM |
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Its a silly idea... what happens in 10 years time when the cars get older and the electronics go wrong... it happens... I dont want anyone but ME
incharge of the brakes... if you dont like it, dont drive!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 07:02 PM |
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All of the above points could have been raised about ABS when that was first introduced to the mainstream. Just because you had it didn't mean
that the guy tailgating you did. As said above though, you shouldn't be close enough for it to come into effect (in theory - Of course I know
about real life. In fact I skidded into the back of a vicar as he didn't even brake - He just used the car in front of him to stop his car dead!
I guess that's what happens when you are obliged to finish off the communion wine eh?)
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 08:57 PM |
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I just remember the problems Mercedes had with their automatic braking assist - it decided to give some drivers a full emergency stop as they
barrelled down the autobahn at high speed!
If Mercedes can't get the electronics right, I'm not inclined to trust the 'lesser manufacturers'.
Even Volvo couldn't get auto braking right!
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PSpirine
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 09:36 PM |
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I don't know bout the other systems but the one we have will only apply stamp the brakes when a COLLISION is inevitable. I.e. you're going
to crash anyway. That's to avoid just what you've mentioned i.e. it dropping the anchors due to a bird flying past or something.
Won't save your car from damage, but probably a sensible idea. Mind you, still relies on electronics.
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skodaman
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| posted on 27/5/11 at 10:57 PM |
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Don't know about the Focus system but does anyone else think that new VW Golfs and Sciroccos have ludicrously sharp brakes? However much I
drive them I can't help stopping 10-20 yards too soon when coming up to junctions. Bloody embarrassing and I'd imagine without the ABS
they'd just lock up all the time. Presumeably they're over-servoed.
Maybe I've driven too many sheds with poor brakes eg. Ladas old Pandas and Minis etc. Or the Rover 800 ( open the sun-roof stand up on the
brake pedal the abs comes on and it still hasn't slowed down much. Can't think of a car less in need of abs. VW Scirocco TS is a
wonderful little car in many ways. 1.4 turbo and supercharged. Goes like sheet off a shovel for the engine size, handles fine but I can't find
the outer limits cos I've always overbraked. Adjustable suspension rock hard in sport mode. Would I buy one? No chance, because of
1/ The brakes.
2/ The sunroof doesn't fully open.
3/ The Nazis at VAG don't fit an ashtray
4/ There's no spare tyre. Golfs have that stupid space saving thing that feels like it's going to fold under the car at 30mph round a
corner.
5/ It's an electrical nightmare. Can't imagine it working in ten years time.
They can stuff abs and power steering for my likings. If you need automatic everything catch the train. Part of what appeals with a Locost = back
to basics. Modern car are just full of gimmicks designed to appeal to the ignorant.
Mind you a roof would be nice occasionally.
Rant over but can't be a**ed with modern cars.
Skodaman
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SteveWalker
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| posted on 28/5/11 at 12:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
All of the above points could have been raised about ABS when that was first introduced to the mainstream. Just because you had it didn't mean
that the guy tailgating you did.
Except that ABS doesn't help you stop any quicker, it just gives you a chance to steer while you're braking rather than just sliding. In
fact sometimes it means that you stop a little slower, but at least you may be able to steer around the obstruction.
Brake assist on the other hand will stop you quicker, possibly quicker than you need to and possibly quicker than the vehicle behind.
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skodaman
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| posted on 28/5/11 at 01:03 AM |
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'Brake assist on the other hand will stop you quicker, possibly quicker than you need to and possibly quicker than the vehicle behind.'
Assuming you're not asleep at the wheel I don't see how brake assist will stop you any quicker that abs or normal brakes for that matter.
There is also the unpredictability of it and what could happen if it goes wrong. I'd rather not have it. Also I think there is a strong case
(not that it will ever happen) for banning power steering and servo brakes. Neither are strictly speaking necessary and in the event of the engine
cutting out lead to reduced braking and sod all steering.
Skodaman
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Ivan
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| posted on 28/5/11 at 06:33 AM |
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My feeling is that the car behind is of no concern as if it is too close to stop when your automatic brakes work it would hit you when you hit the car
in front if you had no automatic brakes.
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karlak
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| posted on 28/5/11 at 07:40 AM |
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Also,, Consider the "average" driver on the road has probably never had to apply a FULL emergency stop. Just hope the first time they do,
that they are not behind me 
Would I rather depend on this individual doing the right thing or the cars electronics taking over their slow and poor decision - Hmm, not sure. I
guess the electonics wont have a bad day or be distracted by something.
I wonder how many people have never even applied or felt ABS when breaking. I remember reading that in that emergency situation, the driver applies
the brakes hard, feels the modulation thru the pedal and immediately lifts their foot as they think there is a problem.. Ofcourse, the argument is
that a "good" driver will never apply brakes hard enough to engage ABS as they are a progressive safe driver. But, there are genuine
emergency situations, a true Accident.
Could be a case for a learner driver having to hit the brakes hard enough to experience ABS working while learning. I know that when I got my first
car with ABS, I went and found a safe place and had a play - Not sure this is what the majority of drivers would do though.
MK Indy - 2litre Duratec - Omex 600 - Jenvey throttle bodies - ETB DigiDash2
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scudderfish
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| posted on 28/5/11 at 08:03 AM |
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I remember hearing of an Israeli system where the brake lights come on if you lift off sharply on the assumption you are about to stamp on the brakes.
Gives the car behind about 0.25secs extra warning that you are about to anchor up.
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 29/5/11 at 03:02 PM |
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Emergency Brake Assist, now theres a kettle of worms. When it was first advertised, I went into nerd mode, lets see now, there is a finite amount of
friction at any time that is variable dependent on, Tyres (make, condition, compound, etc), Vehicle (as per tyres really plus weight), Road Surface
(Type of, verticle and horizontal alignment, contaminations, etc ), the leverage that the driver can apply. Now assume that the driver is awake and
has suddenly realised the level of crap that they have just driven into, then, all things being equal, with modern cars especially, the maximum bake
effort will be exceeded quite quickly in that 'OH SHEET' moment and the skid will be entered. Now this brings me onto Emergency Brake
Assist, at that moment, the car notes that you are stepping onto the brake pedal 'extra hard' and deploys the 'Emergency Brake
Assist'. So in your braking you have exceeded the coefficient of friction and the slide has started, so any extra force being applied to the
normal brake discs/drum/discs combination is a total waste of time. Therefore the manufacturers have reallised this and secretly installed in the boot
of the vehicle, a Gnome or Dwarf, equiped with a F*ck of Super Large Ships anchor on a Very short chain. As the vehicle detects this emergncy brake
press action so an automated system in the boot starts working, this gives the Gnome in the boot an almighty and very startling shock/kick that spurs
them into action. Instantly making the Gnome open the boot and Lob the Anchor out to stop the car in very short order. If this is not the case then
the manufactures have put a function into the brakes so that braking is restricted (don't like the thought of that) unless the car detects
'an Emergency situation'.
A good driver can usually feel the brake effort/stopping ability/friction available and judge the distance they need and any alternate exit route
available. IF they can't then should they be driving.
Just my 2p's worth.
Oh and don't go 'testing' ABS systems, the designed working life for an ABS motor USED to be in the order of 7secs YES SEVEN
SECONDS. They were built around wiper motors.
NOW EDITED with the appropriate word after motor that people seem to have ignored in BIG LETTERS. And yes it really was that long ago that I studied
ABS systems when the motors were off of wiper systems and the design life of operation was a total 7 seconds. And yes things have moved on a bit,with
the ABS motor/system doing a lot more than it used to. And no I don't like them either, it just breeds lazier drivers. Oh and I don't know
if its still the case, but insurance companies used to load extra on company car drivers with ABS systems, simply because they used to have more of
them rear-ending someone else compared to company car drivers without ABS.
[Edited on 30/5/11 by jollygreengiant]
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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eznfrank
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| posted on 29/5/11 at 04:46 PM |
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I'm sure I read somewhere that the Ford system is only "armed" up to 19mph? According to
THIS article it only
works effectively on closing speeds up to 10mph and is de-activated above 19mph.........I guess it's only for stop start traffic and carparks
then??
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morcus
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 01:44 AM |
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are you sure the working life of ABS is just 7 seconds? My Mum used to have a Kia Karens (about 11 years ago) and in the slightest amount of moisture
the ABS light would flash and the pedal would sort of kick back. Two Garages said this was the ABS working propperly and that it was just a
mechanically basic system in that particular car.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 01:52 AM |
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quote:
Oh and don't go 'testing' ABS systems, the designed working life for an ABS motor used to be in the order of 7secs YES SEVEN
SECONDS. They were built around wiper motors.
lol, not sure what systems you're looking at for those specs? Reckon Ive got about 7 minutes worth of motor time so far on my ABS
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 04:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jollygreengiant
Oh and don't go 'testing' ABS systems, the designed working life for an ABS motor used to be in the order of 7secs YES SEVEN
SECONDS. They were built around wiper motors.
Possibly this was the case many years ago in the very early days of ABS. However the ABS modulator on modern cars is used for far more than just ABS
(e.g. traction and stability control, hill descent in 4x4's etc.) and would be designed to last for far longer than 7 seconds!
FWIW "Brake assist" helps in many cases as testing showed that most people don't initially apply the brakes as hard as they could in
an emergency situation. Getting full stopping power a second or so earlier can have quite an impact on stopping distance. Not that I actually like
all this automation however...
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 07:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
FWIW "Brake assist" helps in many cases as testing showed that most people don't initially apply the brakes as hard as they could in
an emergency situation. Getting full stopping power a second or so earlier can have quite an impact on stopping distance. Not that I actually like
all this automation however...
Just goes to prove that 'MOST people' therefore don't know how to drive properly.
Oh and just in case I am not in any way shape or form trying to indicate that I might be a better driver than anyone else or better qualified or
anything really I have made mistakes in driving and have always tried to learn from them. Each time I go out on the road I try and learn something
else and make allowances for others. There are however quite a few on the road that really should not be on the road. More people are killed by cars
etc each day than in aircraft, but we have a much higher standard for pilots than car drivers. Should we not apply a similar standard to the car
driver as to the pilot, licenced by type and engine combination with testing if you want to go up a group, and you have to do a certain number of
hours each year. But this will never happen because the vehicle manufaturers have a vested interest in keeping it going like it is.
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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JoelP
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 08:24 AM |
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i always thought that newer brake assists were just advancements on ABS, ie rather than banging the brakes on and off, it would release the brakes and
then reapply the to a level determined by where it skidded before. No problem for me there, that seems like a logical progression from abs.
In an emergency stop, no one is going to come off the brakes because the pedal feels 'funny', they will just press harder and swear
louder.
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Benzine
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 08:34 AM |
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when a gang of people with baseball bats and crowbars is standing in front of my car I'd love it if the car braked automatically
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HowardB
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 08:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
when a gang of people with baseball bats and crowbars is standing in front of my car I'd love it if the car braked automatically
Which bit of Leicester is that?
for what it's worth one of the reason I love my old scooby is it has no other driver assist other than very reluctant ABS, so all sorts of handy
manoevers are possible. It also has a real handbrake, not just a button, also handy for driving somewhere near the ragged edge.
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 10:33 AM |
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As MikeRJ says, the research points to people not braking hard enough initially, then realising too late that they need to really dig in. I presume it
either comes from people not wanting to skid or under-estimating their speeds. I suspect we're all open to the same faults, regardless of how
good we think we are
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 2/6/11 at 05:28 PM |
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What would Mr Plod say when I plough into the back of another car on the basis of "I've got that automatic braking thingy, FORD! THIS IS
YOUR FAULT!"
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