saigonij
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| posted on 19/3/05 at 09:05 PM |
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Zetec + Ford injection from J plate orion
All,
We took our 1.8 zetec for your kit car out of an orion. J plate. We have hooked everything up in the kit car but there is no spark and she will not
fire.
So far,
the fuel pump runs under command of the ECU -> it primes whenignition is on. When the ingition is turned on, i can hear the ECU resetting the ISCV
. I think the ECU is active when we are cranking.
We replaced the CAS sensor with another one, but still not start.
the coil pack and EDIS unit both have a 12v supply ( although this drops to just over 10v while cranking ).
If i take a spark plug out ( which after a good 10 mins of cranking is still dry ? ) and plug it in to the lead and hold it against the engine ( safey
first ) it does not show any spark. therefore im pretty sure that there is no spark being generated, and now i also think that the injectors are not
firing, as the plugs are still dry...
Fuel is getting to the fuel rail and is being returned to the tank no problem.
Any suggestions would be great! not much hair left...
Ian.
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derby allen
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| posted on 19/3/05 at 09:34 PM |
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Blimmey, glad it's not just my car. sorry this is of no help to you but at least i'm not on my own. (see the post after yours)
Steve
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big_wasa
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| posted on 19/3/05 at 11:25 PM |
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The edis 4 modual was only fitted to the autamatic transmision zetec.
All other zetecs use a stand alone ecu..
Question ??
Have you taken an automatic engine and stuck a manual gearbox and flywheel on it ??????????????
If so the triger sensor on the flywheel will not line up with the manual flywheel Which means it will never fire........
So what engine/box wiring are you using?
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saigonij
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 07:50 AM |
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really?
i know of at least 3 escorts / orions where there is an EDIS unit. We took all this wiring from a Manual car, and the other two manual cars are
untinkered from the factory.
We have taken a manual engine, not touched the flywheel, and bolted on an MT75.
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big_wasa
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 08:48 AM |
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Yep..MY MISTAKE ...............
Information I gave you is true of the mondeo(I think)...
Having checked the "haynes" escorts/orions/fiestas do use the edis 4..
Well Im not always right ,and just trying to help!
Question how have you got round the anti theft modual and the inertia switch?
Or have you transfered the whole loom un modded???????
I am interested as I also have a zetec with a mt75 box but im planning on using carbs and have not yet settled on the ijnition system
yet...................................
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saigonij
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 09:20 AM |
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absolutly! your help is greatly needed! i would not be asking otherwise!!
the anti theft module interupts the fuel pump supply so that was simple. The ECU switches the earth for the fuel pump relay, so it was not a problem
as we had to wire in our own fuel pump relay.
for some reason, the ECU does not know the engine is cranking, and i dont know why. using the hanyes kiddly book is no use as its just a
"typical" wiring diagram! When i followed the CAS sensor wires, they did not go to the pins in the EDIS unit that the haynes manual said
they should!!!
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 03:50 PM |
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I know!!!
I think?
The edis module works by using the crank sensor to determin tdc for ignition timing.
When an ignition events occur the edis sends a pip signal to the ecu. From the pip signal the ecu works out RPM.
No spark, prob means pip is not being sent from edis.
Get the edis producing a spark is your number one piority!!!
Darren
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Shandylegs
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 04:49 PM |
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Darren. sorry to drop in on this thread but have a similar problem and similar post to this one. Would you say i am having the same problem and if so
I can i check to find out, I have now tried a 1.6,1.8 and 2.0 Coil pack as someone said they vary.made no difference.
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 07:21 PM |
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What was the thread called?
Or what are your problems/symptoms?
Darren
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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paulf
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 07:37 PM |
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The edis will actually produce a spark with no connection to the ECU, it will be at 10deg before TDC as in the limp home mode.
I am building a megajolt ignition controller and at present have an edis unit on my car connected to 12 volt, the coil pack and crank sensor only.This
set up will start the car.
It sounds as if the Edis is faulty, or the wiring to the CPS.As far as i know the coilpacks are interchangable electrically.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by turbodisplay
I know!!!
I think?
The edis module works by using the crank sensor to determin tdc for ignition timing.
When an ignition events occur the edis sends a pip signal to the ecu. From the pip signal the ecu works out RPM.
No spark, prob means pip is not being sent from edis.
Get the edis producing a spark is your number one piority!!!
Darren
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saigonij
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 07:45 PM |
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ok, so far this is great.
i knew the crank pos sensor was involved somewhere in this...
right, can anyone tell me what to look for? when the engine was cranking, the CAS was producing a 3v AC signal. Is this right?
How can i check that the EDIS unit is getting the signals it needs?
Also, as well as the 2 pin connector for the CAS, there was also a small female single connector? anyn ideas? it is about 10 cm up from the CAS
connector...
Also, when testing the wiring from the CAS, one of the pins from the connector was going to pin 5 or 7 on the EDIS unit, the other pin on the CAS
connector seemed to go no where ( i was using a buzz, continuity test on my multi meter ).
so to sum up, how can i test that the EDIS unit is getting the signals it needs?
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paulf
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 07:49 PM |
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Diagram attached.
quote:
Originally posted by saigonij
ok, so far this is great.
i knew the crank pos sensor was involved somewhere in this...
right, can anyone tell me what to look for? when the engine was cranking, the CAS was producing a 3v AC signal. Is this right?
How can i check that the EDIS unit is getting the signals it needs?
Also, as well as the 2 pin connector for the CAS, there was also a small female single connector? anyn ideas? it is about 10 cm up from the CAS
connector...
Also, when testing the wiring from the CAS, one of the pins from the connector was going to pin 5 or 7 on the EDIS unit, the other pin on the CAS
connector seemed to go no where ( i was using a buzz, continuity test on my multi meter ).
so to sum up, how can i test that the EDIS unit is getting the signals it needs?
 
Rescued attachment edis wiring.gif
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saigonij
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 07:54 PM |
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lovely jubely!
how does the sheilder connect and to what! im guessing that is what the small connector is near the CAS, but i cant find anything to connect it
to!!!
If the ECU does not know the Car is cranking over, it will not add fuel right?
so all things point towards the CAS sensor, and the wiring...
for pins 6 and 5, i should get a beep on a continuity test between the CAS connector pins and the EDIS unit?
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paulf
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 08:03 PM |
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The shield connects to ground, not sure about the actual physical method as mine is wired from scratch with some shielded network cable , I just
pulled the bits from a scrap car and made my own loom.
To check the wiring from sensor to edis plug i would just test the cable for continuity from one end to the other individally, or check for the sensor
signal at the edis plug when cranking.The edis may not show a circuit on your tester as it will have a high impedance input.
It should start and run without the sheld being grounded but advise you ground it to finish the installation to avoid any stray signal problems.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by saigonij
lovely jubely!
how does the sheilder connect and to what! im guessing that is what the small connector is near the CAS, but i cant find anything to connect it
to!!!
If the ECU does not know the Car is cranking over, it will not add fuel right?
so all things point towards the CAS sensor, and the wiring...
for pins 6 and 5, i should get a beep on a continuity test between the CAS connector pins and the EDIS unit?
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tks
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 08:05 PM |
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nahhhh
Nahh...
An MCU isn't a stupid thing...
it will never only break the fuelpump but also the spark and the injection....
wy i think?
i develop software for Micro controllers
its a very small job to be sure it doesn't fire / inject / pumpsfuel.....
i cant proof the words so i hope i'm wrong,
on the other hand it would be a big mistake from FORD if they let it be that simple...
don't forget that it would be to simple to steal the cars if it was a mather of getting to the pump and just put a piece of wire to the pump to
chasis....wouldn't it?
You should test/verify your findings with a Working setup
On the other hand if the mcu doesn't get RPM it cant calculate Air amount, if it cant do that it cant inject fuel, also it cant spark because it
has no idea where the pistons are..
TKS
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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paulf
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 08:14 PM |
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The edis will create a spark on its own at 10deg before tdc, the ECU returns a SAW signal to alter the timing.I know this as a fact because my car at
present is fitted with an edis and crank sensor only and starts and runs with ignition at 10 deg.
In the factory setup the pip signal also controls the fuel etc, so maybe no fuel but there should be a spark as long as the edis is getting a 12volt
supply and crank signal, ie if wired as in diagram i posted.
Paul.
[ quote]Originally posted by tks
Nahh...
An MCU isn't a stupid thing...
it will never only break the fuelpump but also the spark and the injection....
wy i think?
i develop software for Micro controllers
its a very small job to be sure it doesn't fire / inject / pumpsfuel.....
i cant proof the words so i hope i'm wrong,
on the other hand it would be a big mistake from FORD if they let it be that simple...
don't forget that it would be to simple to steal the cars if it was a mather of getting to the pump and just put a piece of wire to the pump to
chasis....wouldn't it?
You should test/verify your findings with a Working setup
On the other hand if the mcu doesn't get RPM it cant calculate Air amount, if it cant do that it cant inject fuel, also it cant spark because it
has no idea where the pistons are..
TKS
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paulf
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 08:16 PM |
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Heres a diagram of the ford set up with ecu connected also.
 
Rescued attachment edis connections.jpg
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tks
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| posted on 20/3/05 at 08:22 PM |
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ok
ok, but then you still have to control the injection mosfets/transistors
and offcourse 10degrees TDC isn't the setting in the MCU all the way up with the revs...
i think you need to try and test with a working car its the best idea and the fastest.....
sadly its also the most difficult
TKS
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 21/3/05 at 12:19 AM |
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Yes, i should have mentioned that the edis will produce a spark without being connected to the ecu.
I belive there are two grounds that the edis unit has? (can`t rember off the top of my head), i think only one ground has been connected.
I`m currently making my own ecu with edis control - hope to bring it to market soon!
I`m using the cosworth v6, with a twin sequential turbo setup.
Should be fun!!!
Darren
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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saigonij
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| posted on 21/3/05 at 07:05 AM |
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i have that engine in my capri.
was featured on the front, and inside of Practical Performance Car magazine this month.
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derby allen
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| posted on 21/3/05 at 11:10 AM |
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I had an interesting conversation today with Dunnell over my problem, very similar to yours i think. (No spark) two areas to check, 1. the crankcase
sensor must not be more than 1.5mm for the rear of the Flywheel, suggests feeler gauges inserted from underneath the car. (this may happen if the
flywheel has been modified etc.
2. Check the 12V power feed has not be taken from the ignition aux supply as when cranking the engine over no power will will be supplied.
I will check both and let you know
steve
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derby allen
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| posted on 21/3/05 at 07:12 PM |
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My problem solved. It was the feed from the ignition, 12v until you turned the engine over then Nothing hence no spark.
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CairB
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| posted on 22/3/05 at 12:55 PM |
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I found that the 36 tooth wheel sensor polarity needed to be correct else no spark. This should be true for the EDIS disconnected from the ECU.
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saigonij
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| posted on 25/3/05 at 08:32 PM |
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she fires!
She fired up today!!!
i had the wrong plug on the CAS sensor.
found a spare lead, plug it in to the right connector on the loom and fired first turn of the key!!!
We now have a motor fuel injected by uncle henry's finest EFi system!
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