Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 11:33 AM |
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Pinto, no spark
I'm back from uni and have finally got time to build  I searched for this for a while on this forum but all the diagrams showing this setup on
the motorcraft amp had different coloured wires coming from it. I have recently fitted my wiring loom and got it all setup so that the engine is
turning over, fuel supply is sorted. Only problem is i'm not getting any sparks. Diagram attached showing the way i've wired up the coil,
amplifier, dizzy etc...
Anyone know why it's not sparking? I have the correct dizzy (as I spoke to burton power and ordered the right type) Maybe it's the way the
loom is connected :S
Thanks for any help
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 11:35 AM |
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Attachment:
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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James
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 12:00 PM |
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Hi Benzine,
This diagram works- I know as that's how I did my engine and it runs.
 
This Ignition Wiring Works!
Look in my photo archive at the Amps and dizzys:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/photos.php?action=gal&user=James&folder=Ignition
You need Amp 'A' and Dizzy 'A'.
If you've done all this and it still doesn't work then something's knackered! 
Good luck, hope that helps,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 12:07 PM |
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Thanks James. I tried using that diagram from an older thread but the different colours confused me I think it must be the way i'm wiring in
the loom to the dizzy/coil/amp setup 
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 12:46 PM |
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As far as i know you dont have a wire from the amp to the solenoid (i assume you mean starter solenoid).
My amp had different colours. It was from injected Pinto and definitely no good for a carb set-up. Make sure you have the bits referred to in James
threads / photos.
Injected pinto amp needs trigger signal from crank sensor that is processed by the ECU. The injection setup dizzy is a hall effect one - ie electronic
advance/retard. your burtons dizzy is probably mechanical advance but wont match up to a injected amp.
Watch out with the wire colours, the trigger wires are shielded and insulated, this means the actual wire colour to quote is inside.
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 01:00 PM |
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My head hurts
Basically I have a 205 injection pinto. I bought it as an engine only with no other parts. I told burton i had a injection pinto that i wanted to run
carbs on so that i would get the correct dizzy. So is it the amplifier? I got the amplifier from a single downdraught carb pinto from the scrappies.
If so where could i get the correct one? (there were no injection pintos at the scrappies)
Thanks for any help
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 02:15 PM |
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similar problem to me. i got an injected Pinto with dizzy, wiring loom etc but no injection kit. I have fitted 38DGAS and am now on the lookout for
the right bits to convert the igntition. James' thread is an excellent source of info and photos.
Iam now after electronic dizzy and amp from 1.6 or 1.8 pinto, or from pre-'86 2.0 pinto (all carb versions). You are looking for dizzy with
round plug on a flying lead (i think 2 wires) and the amp that goes with it.
My dizzy has a rectangular plug directly on the body with 3 connections - this is no good as it is the hall effect one and needs crank sensor, ecu etc
etc.
The other option is to go for distibutorless ignition (EDIS4) powered by megajolt ecu. It has been done for £120 ish by other people.
Here is my thread on the dizzy subject
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=22738
that links and quotes James info. alarm bells were ringing in my head when you said you told Burtons you had a 2.o injected pinto. They may have shut
down to the other data (ref carbs and no ecu etc) and supplied you with a replacement injected dizzy. I hope not. What plug does the new one have?
(the advance mechanism on the originals is the round external vacuum one however i think th ebetter aftermarket ones are internal mechanical advance
where the advance curve is factory set to a particular engine configuration before supply).
HTH,
Darren.
Having read your thread again - it sounds like your ampo is NG. Have you checked you have the right one (wire colours sound like it isnt). If you
confirm it is correct i have been told that new ones are not that expensive and come with guarantee.
[Edited on 23/3/05 by DarrenW]
[Edited on 23/3/05 by DarrenW]
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 03:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
What plug does the new one have?
The new one has a rectangular 3 wire plug with black, green and brown wires. I told burton that i was using an ignition engine but now using carbs etc
and was told this would be the correct one
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Having read your thread again - it sounds like your ampo is NG. Have you checked you have the right one (wire colours sound like it isnt). If you
confirm it is correct i have been told that new ones are not that expensive and come with guarantee.
The wire colours are the same as my diagram, it's from a pinto with a single carb on it. Is it the amp that is not right then? If so is there
anywhere I can get a new one?
Thanks for all the help so far
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 03:28 PM |
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I have bad news for you im afraid - iam 95% certain that you have the wrong dizzy. my dizzy, albeit old and dirty is also the 3 connection rectangular
plug one and it is definitely no good. I have heard that you can get engine to run with it but there is no advance / retard, it is a hall effect one
that needs signal from ecu.
You need dizzy A in james photo, i bet yours looks like dizzy B with the plug as part of the dizzy body as opoosed to being on the end of the flying
lead.
As for the amps i have amp B which is defo no good. Im looking for amp A(havent actually looked yet). Look in my thread for donors. If you already
have amp A i dont think it will work with your dizzy anyway.
HTH - its bloody confusing at first. I was in denial for a while until i faced facts and accepted that my bits were crap and i have to spend money!
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 03:45 PM |
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I have amp A so i think that's good. Thanks for the help...now to get onto burton
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
I have bad news for you im afraid - iam 95% certain that you have the wrong dizzy. my dizzy, albeit old and dirty is also the 3 connection rectangular
plug one and it is definitely no good. I have heard that you can get engine to run with it but there is no advance / retard, it is a hall effect one
that needs signal from ecu.
You need dizzy A in james photo, i bet yours looks like dizzy B with the plug as part of the dizzy body as opoosed to being on the end of the flying
lead.
As for the amps i have amp B which is defo no good. Im looking for amp A(havent actually looked yet). Look in my thread for donors. If you already
have amp A i dont think it will work with your dizzy anyway.
HTH - its bloody confusing at first. I was in denial for a while until i faced facts and accepted that my bits were crap and i have to spend money!
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 03:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
I have amp A so i think that's good. Thanks for the help...now to get onto burton
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
I have bad news for you im afraid - iam 95% certain that you have the wrong dizzy. my dizzy, albeit old and dirty is also the 3 connection rectangular
plug one and it is definitely no good. I have heard that you can get engine to run with it but there is no advance / retard, it is a hall effect one
that needs signal from ecu.
You need dizzy A in james photo, i bet yours looks like dizzy B with the plug as part of the dizzy body as opoosed to being on the end of the flying
lead.
As for the amps i have amp B which is defo no good. Im looking for amp A(havent actually looked yet). Look in my thread for donors. If you already
have amp A i dont think it will work with your dizzy anyway.
HTH - its bloody confusing at first. I was in denial for a while until i faced facts and accepted that my bits were crap and i have to spend money!
EDIT: I have just spoken to burton and described the situation telling them which dizzy i bought from them and which amp I have. i was told the dizzy
I have is fine and that either the amp from a carb or an injection pinto will be fine.
 i thought pintos were supposed to be simple 
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 04:13 PM |
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Did they tell you how to wire it up? Thats the key bit. If they did prey tell.
I have it on good authority that the dizzy with recatngular plug is from the later electronic ignition set up and wont work without a crank sensor
trigger etc. Actually, slightly incorrect, it will work in a fashion but only correctly at tick-over or at full revs. Anything in between will be
rough as you wont be feeding the hall effect with the signal it needs to adjust the advance.
Please tell me - what is the spec of your dizzy. It might be something to do with the ignitor bit. How much was it?
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Benzine
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 04:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Please tell me - what is the spec of your dizzy. It might be something to do with the ignitor bit. How much was it?
If you have a burton power catalogue it's on page 61 on the right hand side. It was pricey (over £200 for dizzy and coil) The older dizzy I had
also had a rectangular plug and so does this new one i have (although on the new one the plug is mounted on a box and I can see an electric circuit
board in there)
https://www.burtonpower.com/dets_product.aspx?App=SO&PGrp=08003&PSet=1
3rd down on the above link (old dizzy for exchange) I didn't get any wiring instructions but is it just me or on that picture is that lead going
from the dizzy to the coil? 
Edit: I've just looked in the burton catalogue and the brown wire appears to go to the +ve on the coil :S
EDIT 2: I have just found a piece of paper that came with the dizzy. It would appear that I haven't wired it up properly according to it. It
says this:
'The 2 wires from the ignition module must be connected as follows:
Black - 12v positive (ignition switched)
Green - Negative side of coil'
So do I take the negative wire from the dizzy to the coil instead of the amp? And what does ignition switched mean? :O
[Edited on 23/3/05 by Benzine]
[Edited on 23/3/05 by Benzine]
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/05 at 05:15 PM |
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Im sure the brown lead is earth. After that ill need to study the other threads again to suss out the wiring. If i get chance ill have a look
tomorrow. Take a look and see if you can follow them.
I like the dizzys. There are a few possibilities there. Price is not so good. I might try to go 2nd hand for now. Post SVA project may well be
megajolt so i dont want to spend much for now.
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Benzine
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 10:31 AM |
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*kicks pinto into massive furnace*
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 11:38 AM |
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Benzine,
Have you had a look at the other link that is running in parallel. Theyt are talking about how to wire up Aldon ignitor set up. Is this what your is?
They have confirmed no black box needed and it sounds very easy indeed. I might consider this myself as it simlifies the wiring.
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mookaloid
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 12:17 PM |
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I can confirm that the ignitor system is a doddle to fit and wire up - it as also really neat (all contained within the dizzy cap)
I believe that you need a Bosch points dizzy to start with though. It is really a points replacement - the dizzy still provides mechanical advance
with or without vacuum.
HTH
Mark
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NS Dev
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Did they tell you how to wire it up? Thats the key bit. If they did prey tell.
I have it on good authority that the dizzy with recatngular plug is from the later electronic ignition set up and wont work without a crank sensor
trigger etc. Actually, slightly incorrect, it will work in a fashion but only correctly at tick-over or at full revs. Anything in between will be
rough as you wont be feeding the hall effect with the signal it needs to adjust the advance.
Please tell me - what is the spec of your dizzy. It might be something to do with the ignitor bit. How much was it?
The difference between the dizzys is very simple and not black magic!!
The shorter dizzy has no advance mechanism built into it. It supplies a pulse to the ECU which then uses this + a delay that it generates, to fire the
plugs. This type of dizzy is that as used on the Sierra Cosworth and Escort RS Turbo. It is not used with crank trigger systems, as the whole point of
the crank trigger is to give the signal that the dizzy is giving!
The longer dizzy has mechanical and vacuum advance mechanisms. The latter of these is not necessarily present on "competition"
dizzy's, but they will always need a mechanical advance mechanism to work!!
I see no reason at all why either of the amps won't work, they both do the same job, just may have different wiring colours.
as a little pointer (as I don't know the full answer to your problems) brown is used as an earth by german manufacturers like Ford.
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Benzine
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:16 PM |
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Here's the griff...I have taken out the motorcraft amplifier and used only the dizzy and coil: +ve dizzy to +ve coil, same with -ve, tacho on
-ve coil, and what do you know...I get a spark  I thought it was my eyes playing tricks but no, it's there
Now the engine seems really hard to turn over compared to before, should this be so? I'm just wanting to fire it up now but it seems to be
struggling and I don't know why. From my digidash I'm getting a reading of 11.2 from the battery, is that normal?
Thanks for all the help everyone 
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Please tell me - what is the spec of your dizzy. It might be something to do with the ignitor bit. How much was it?
If you have a burton power catalogue it's on page 61 on the right hand side. It was pricey (over £200 for dizzy and coil) The older dizzy I had
also had a rectangular plug and so does this new one i have (although on the new one the plug is mounted on a box and I can see an electric circuit
board in there)
https://www.burtonpower.com/dets_product.aspx?App=SO&PGrp=08003&PSet=1
3rd down on the above link (old dizzy for exchange) I didn't get any wiring instructions but is it just me or on that picture is that lead going
from the dizzy to the coil?
Edit: I've just looked in the burton catalogue and the brown wire appears to go to the +ve on the coil :S
EDIT 2: I have just found a piece of paper that came with the dizzy. It would appear that I haven't wired it up properly according to it. It
says this:
'The 2 wires from the ignition module must be connected as follows:
Black - 12v positive (ignition switched)
Green - Negative side of coil'
So do I take the negative wire from the dizzy to the coil instead of the amp? And what does ignition switched mean? :O
[Edited on 23/3/05 by Benzine]
[Edited on 23/3/05 by Benzine]
RIGHT!!!
LET'S SORT THIS OUT!!!!
JUST HAD A LOOK AT THE BURTON LINK, AND YOU HAVE BEEN RATHER MISLED ON HERE!!
THE BOX ON THE SIDE OF YOUR BURTON DIZZY IS THE AMP!!!!!!!!!
JUST CONNECT IT UP AS PER THE BURTON INSTRUCTION PAPER AND IT WILL RUN FINE!!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:19 PM |
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MY LAST POST WAS A BIT LATE!
MAY WELL BE TRICKY TO TURN OVER IF THE TIMING IS MILES OUT, CHECK THE STATIC TIMING THOROUGHLY FIRST.
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Benzine
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
MY LAST POST WAS A BIT LATE!
MAY WELL BE TRICKY TO TURN OVER IF THE TIMING IS MILES OUT, CHECK THE STATIC TIMING THOROUGHLY FIRST.
Hmm i got the engine fully reconditioned from totalengine and they told me it was timed to perfection :S
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:23 PM |
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the battery voltage does sund a bit low, but have you taken the dizzy out? If so, how do you know where the timing is.
Also, doublecheck everything and never trust anybody!
If you have fuel and sparks, it should start in some fashion at least.
[Edited on 24/3/05 by NS Dev]
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Benzine
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
the battery voltage does sund a bit low, but have you taken the dizzy out? If so, how do you know where the timing is.
Also, doublecheck everything and never trust anybody!
Ahh i see what you mean now. The trouble is i'm a complete n00b ^__^ Is timing in the Haynes manual, if it is I'll go fetch it
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 24/3/05 at 01:33 PM |
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Yep, all in haynes. Follow the "static timing" bit to the letter, except that Burton quote 14 degrees before tdc, so if Haynes say 12
degrees, then ignore their figure and use the Burton one.
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