Howlor
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 10:52 AM |
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Solenoids / Actuators - Electronic Shift
Hi,
Looking at building an Electronic Shifter but wondered if anyone else had done this and what solenoid they had used. I have spoken to The Solenoid
Company who can make me one for the job.
Thanks
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smart51
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 11:05 AM |
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Is this in addition to the mechanical shift or instead of it? I might be interested in a paddle shift upgrade in the future.
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mak
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 11:14 AM |
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I've heard of a pair of starter moror solonoids being used, no idea how it worked!
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Howlor
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 11:30 AM |
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I was planning to run it in addition to the standard lever shift. I have also heard about people using starter solenoids although I would regard the
installs that I have seen as been somewhat agricultural! I want to build something more like the Kliktronic device so it looks the part as well as
doing the job.
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evo3500
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 posted on 11/10/05 at 11:31 AM |
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check out www.kliktronic.co.uk they do a solenoid electronic shifter i have one fitted to my car it works very well,the tech spec may be on the
website hope this helps.
Regards Simon
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jambojeef
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 12:37 PM |
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I was thinking about this a while back and read a website somewhere that reccomended using a SAAB starter solenoid since it has a particularly long
throw. This was coupled with a programmable chip and then momentary push to make switched on the steering wheel.
The guy who wrote the website reckoned his wasnt very reliable and it was especially hard to fnd neutral owing to it being a "half click"
on the gear lever.
Been searching for the link but cant find it sorry!
Let us know how you get on,
Geoff
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tks
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 01:06 PM |
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mhhh
i wanted the same thing...
but i used an servo from an RC car.
from the querter Scale these have allot of torque...
And i have had it working....
i used the newest servo i could find (digital ones) for more torque.
the last time i checked my system on the car it didn't work and the problem was that the servo broke down.. i think i have burned it some
where..because now it looks it hasn't got enough force any more.
and with my hands the lever is still easy to move...
i made the system in conjuction with my Electric to hydro Clutch also done with an servo!
that one works out standing.
together i had the setup including my accelerator electronic (works great)
because i wanted to make an electronic shift system..
sow it was acelerate full throttle...push an button keep your foot down..
the rest does the computer and it worked very well exept that the servo now is burned i guess and it doesn't has force enough.
the problem with the lever is that it moves from his rest position in every gear..
but i could programm differente coordinates in my system to become that..
if we have an go at an good and cheap solenoid then i'm sure the hole can complete work.. because the solenoid can me actuated with PWM...(an
servo 2, but it forces his position continously)
And in that way the rest position isn't an problem any more..
sow call an price and maybe you can order 2 of them by that company!
i'm interested..
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 11/10/05 at 01:35 PM |
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The user CEEMOB did a system for some builders a while ago Blake had it all sorted but for the accuation problem
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Rorty
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| posted on 12/10/05 at 04:23 AM |
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You could spend months sorting out the solenoids and then you'd still have to surmount the electronics for it to work. If they're not 100%
they're a right royal PITA!
The solenoids would also have to be powerful enough to move the mechanical shifter too, unless you disconnected it.
A mechanical paddle shifter is a far easier and more reliable option, plus it allows you to "feel" the box when changing.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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tks
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| posted on 12/10/05 at 09:17 PM |
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better idea....
Why we don't use an
Electricmotor and we make an part so that it fits straight on the splines of the box? Whe only will need then an stepper motor or just an electric one
wich we then activate by PWM during xx seconds..
at least its bloody fast then...
Rorty that kind of computers are fun to make,
if any one knows an page where i can upload an movi, i have made on of my clutch and accelarator..
i could make / insert an cruise control for example.... or when i build my electric reverse insert it to the system an just go backwards with the same
acc pedal
untherstand?
regards,
Tks
[Edited on 12/10/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Rorty
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| posted on 12/10/05 at 09:35 PM |
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IIRC, Honda use a stepper motor to change gear in some of their non CVT quads. There is also at least one manufacturer of aftermarket stepper motor
gear changers for quads.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 07:57 AM |
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Hi,
Have build a number in my time and now build a slightly more complex system professionally. From what I have herd talking to people they work fine.
However if I was to do it again I would do some thing differently (I guess that is the same with every thing though).
Using a model servo is a good idea however I would recommend using an industrial one so that is has a good level of sealing preventing stuff getting
in to the gear chain and bearings.
Solenoids work fine. I used the SARB starter motor solenoids that also have a limet switch built in to them. Most starter motor solenoids would
work.
As to wither it is worth it for the driver it is all down to personal taste. I can quote the gear change times and they are faster but some think that
it removes driver input.
I stopped building the system as at the price I charged I made a practically nothing on them and that took up a lot of time. If people are interested
I would make more but would want to build a minimum of 5 preferably 10 to make it a wroth while venture for me.
in my time.
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Howlor
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 08:07 AM |
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I will see what stepper motors I can find as I have a friend who works in this industry.
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G.Man
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 08:27 AM |
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All the secuity doors at our bank branches use a 12 solenoid to lock them...
Big sliding pin activated by a keypad, they are 12v and may have enough grunt to run a gearshift...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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Rorty
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 08:34 AM |
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See if you can borrow them and give us a report how it works out.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Howlor
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 08:47 AM |
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Even better just let us have the code and we'll have a look ourselves!
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Howlor
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 08:50 AM |
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ceebmoj, I would be interested, what kind of price would you be looking for? I may buy 5 from you as I know of a few guys that would be interested as
well.
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tks
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 12:14 PM |
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mhhh
i surely would prefer
Stepper motor! wy? they are enormous torquii... and it would create an tremendous fast gearbox...
because how much turns does the lever?
i think its 15/360 that means 15degrees..
not much, and an stepper motor can do the job because it is torqui to di it without lever! also it enables us to disable the motor or program
coordinates in them.
We can use any voltage because we will use pwm to de the job. i have seen running 5volts Steppers on 50volt!
sow if we can find an 5volt stepper and just use the 12volts from the battery with pwm then we are there.
maybe its not the right comparation but in F1 they also hookup an motor directly to the shaft. in our case, if want it faster than fast we will need
to take of the spring..or at least make it weaker....??
Will need to look how i can make an easy stepper motor driver with an small pic and some fets... then we can make the system realy fast.
The only thing what we need to know is some info from an gearbox expert..:
1) what happens if the lever is fully pressed and is held there when you are driveing? does some parts then wear?
2) how much tolerance is there in the rest position of the gearbox shaft?
maybe its just easyer to try it with an wiper motor or an water spray motor ..etc..
because in fact we only need 0,5 sec power in it in either direccion and neutral will be 0,3sec or something..
regards,
Tks
[Edited on 13/10/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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tks
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 12:45 PM |
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and neutral??
Well neutral
will be seen by the computer,
sow if you are in gear 1 and whants one higer it just keeps moving up until neutral singal comes and then falls away...
if you are in 1 and whant one down (to Neutral) it gives upward until it notices neutral....
sow we can either make the box layout like this!
6
5
4
3
2
1
N
instead of
6
5
4
3
2
N
1
Tks
this solution would be very compact and also fast...any one noticed disadvantages?
the only one i can think of is you cant connect an lever any more. but my goal is that the system is 99% reliable sow don't need a manual
override
have you got pics ceebmoj from that solenoids..
[Edited on 13/10/05 by tks]
 
Rescued attachment GearboxMotorShiftsetup.JPG
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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tks
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 12:56 PM |
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Fly by Wire v1.0b
See and judge your self..
If you take an good look you see:
- Clutch servo, for precise take off
- Throtle servo, for full throttle shifting
- Acc pedal pot (precise type)
- Box with all the components
mainly the complete fly by wire system is on 1 computer. sow clutch is digital, accelator, shift.
If i press the clutch an relais does for me the task of connecting the 2 wires from the original bike loom. (sow i can start in gear only if i press
clutch)
The neutral switch is also connected to it, sow in Neutral it resets the gear count to 0.
One day i maybe change te clutch servo for an stepper motor as well, it will be more fast.
The servo takes appr. 1sec. to declutch (full movement). 0,6 for clutch(full movement) .... i guess never messured it any way.
anyway i have spare room because when i take off () the servo is at the half of is way...(sow there is room for upgrades)
Tks
[Edited on 13/10/05 by tks]
 
Rescued attachment Foto 008 small.JPG
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 03:44 PM |
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hi,
in the pased I have sold the devices - solinoids for around £50 however that was with citcutry to drive a solinoid not a steper motor. I can speck a
stepper motor or if you have a good supply I can design the drive circutry to work with that stepper motor.
and recalcut the cost based on thoues components. and new code.
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tks
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 07:48 PM |
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mhhh
Think i will give an normal motor an go first.
Before i go stepper.
before i go at all i will take an look at how complicate / easy an stepper driver is.
because thats at least for me the thougest part.
the reason that an stepper motor has allot of torque is because it puts allot of energie to displace something for an small distance! think about it
the standard step is 1,4degrees. and then we can go half step and micro step!
the disadvantage is price and weight.
i think if i make it with an normal motor it will be an bit like slamming on the axle sinds you cant position it..or at least give it an easy turn
limit...
on the stepper one, you send 5 pulses and it wil make 5 steps..(if it has the torque...) sow without encoder you send 6 and you are done..
if use encoder (an device that tells you how much steps it did make in reality)
then we have an closed and 100% closed system but also the most expensive..
also an encoder can be mounted on the motor at any time (thats the reason the shaft sticks out at 2 sides of the motor)
gonna google!
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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davidwag
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 09:05 PM |
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Hi,
The LUK designed paddle gear change, on things like mercedes A class, use a motor identical to a rear wiper motor. Complete with worm gear and
operating arm, with feedback from a potentiometer. So operating like a servo.
David
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tks
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| posted on 13/10/05 at 09:29 PM |
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yeah
With an stepper motor we can make the setup more compact.
Because of the little movement we need, i'm also thinking of using an Pot meter as an Position device (for feedback).
(It will be connected to the shaft of the stepper motor)
the only problem is how much torque is needed to turn an gearbox lever.
my servo in its best time could select first gear even with the engine not running.
altough i will disable this option in further software updates(i guess)
Have read 5volts 1amp gives 320N/mm of torque.
Thats 32Kg/mm thats 3,2Kg/cm
sow an shaft with an thickness of 1cm will
towup 3,2Kgs - the weight of the cable used(rope)
My Digital servo has 186N/cm,
that means it has 18,6Kg/cm.... but..
i used an action radi on it of lets say 25mm ==> 7,44Kg left...
The gearbox shaft was lengted with let say 85mm.
Sow pulling with 7,44Kg on an shaft of 85mm will do the trick! lets reduce the 85mm to the 15 of the shaft. its an factor of 5,6.
Sow on the shaft we need an force of 5.6*7.44Kg of torque is this right?
41Kgs
Tks
[Edited on 13/10/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Howlor
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| posted on 14/10/05 at 09:31 AM |
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-pcs-Size-23-Hybrid-Stepper-Motor-Astrosyn-EE163-5_W0QQitemZ7553818813QQcategoryZ26209QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Do we think these are too weak?
Thanks
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