Haynes Cost Vs Other Kit Options
Padstar - 6/6/12 at 06:54 PM
Hi,
I have noticed a few of you have put your build costs on here for your roadster projects, many of which are £10k+. Is this correct? Obviously a build
cost can increase to what you make it but in general is this a figure people have found to be realistic?
If so does this not go very far towards a "manufactured" kit car (ie westfield) kit?
What are your thoughts on Haynes Vs Westfield (or others) kits when based on build cost?
big_wasa - 6/6/12 at 07:02 PM
The westfield will have a much beter and easier resale value.
The haynes will be more rewarding. I made it ect instead of I bolted it together.
They are what you make them.
[Edited on 6/6/12 by big_wasa]
ashg - 6/6/12 at 07:14 PM
most people spend between 3-6k building a haynes where as a westfield is more like £14-15k for a pretty basic one done. a 6k Haynes will most likely
have a more trick bits on it than a 15k westfield but the westfield will still be a better car and will fetch good money second hand. at the end of
the day a westfield is a more developed product so it is going to cost you more.
[Edited on 6/6/2012 by ashg]
deezee - 6/6/12 at 07:26 PM
I built my Haynes for around £5,000 (including IVA) and it took 3 years. You can chuck a Westfield together in a couple of weeks but it will be worth
a hell of a lot more. The amount of hours I've thrown in, doing everything myself has been incredibly rewarding and very frustrating at times.
I'm very proud of what I've made from a set of paper plans, its taught me a lot. So to conclude
Haynes - fraction of the price, not as polished, need far skill / patience to build, you'll need loads of tools (welder)
Westfield - Expensive, very well finished, doesn't need much in terms of mechanical skill / understanding, basic tools
Padstar - 6/6/12 at 07:54 PM
3-6k is far more the budget i was thinking of. If they can be built to this budget and to a high standard then it is a no brainer (unless you have a
load of spare money to get a more designed product).
Will the look of them not be very similar? If pre fabricated GRP panels are purchased for the bodywork and a bit of money and time spent on the
interior finish? Surely what is under the hood and chassi are very similar (other than a pro engineer welding it rather than my fair hands?)
Whilst i dont really want to compromise on the quality or performance of the car, my main goal is to challenge myself over a few years to produce
something i can call my own work. Is there much of a difference in the end performance of the Haynes Vs Westfield?
Out of interest what does the average roadster weigh?
deezee - 6/6/12 at 08:16 PM
Any car only has the performance of the engine and transmission you choose to put in it. Makes it a difficult question to answer. The suspension
geometry of a Westfield is their own design using their own uprights and wishbones . A Sierra based Haynes (No idea what a Mazda based Haynes is like)
adapts parts to suit a kitcar.... with compromises. Also no, what is under the bodywork of a Haynes is not what lies under the bodywork of a
Westfield.
My car weighs in (according to the IVA) at 280kgs front and 230kgs rear. I'm a little skeptical though.
mark chandler - 6/6/12 at 08:53 PM
Also depends on if you are trying to achieve a new plate, meaning most parts must be new.
If you source a cheap donor due to high mileage then you will produce a car that is already quite worn out unless you spend £££ refurbing bits.
If you get a really good crashed donor then the bits will in general be of better quality.
For myself my locost came in at £3000 including tools to build, welder and good bits such as lightweight brakes etc, making as much as possible.
If you want a kit to assemble it will cost more, for example my wishbones cost a couple of pounds for second hand landrover panhard rods for steel, a
bit of weld and some rose joints at £2.50 each I think. Purchased would have been maybe £200 ?
Rear upright, bit of 1/4" flat cut and welded up, again a couple of pounds, purchased maybe £100.
It all adds up, make it and you will save hundreds, buy a kit and it will cost more but will have a better resale value and can be produced in
weeks/months not years 
.
For £6000 I would be able to produce a Busa powered rocket ship on a new registration by making myself, 2/3rd that being the engine !
Padstar - 6/6/12 at 10:43 PM
3k all in - wow. I have always had the idea of new parts giving a new plate but thought the £ would prevent it. Are u only allowed 1 refurbished
part?
Surely the engine, gearbox, breaks and springs would eat a long way into 3k if purchased new??
Bluemoon - 7/6/12 at 08:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
3k all in - wow. I have always had the idea of new parts giving a new plate but thought the £ would prevent it. Are u only allowed 1 refurbished
part?
Surely the engine, gearbox, breaks and springs would eat a long way into 3k if purchased new??
You don't need every-thing new, just the parts that are required to get enough points for a new plate. Take a look at the DVLA site the rules are
on there.
Keeping to a tight budget is all well and good (I did even with the MK kit), but you trade time for money, and if you need to learn new skills as well
it will take even longer... Not to put you off but do think about just how long it will take, longer than you think, great if your enjoying it but not
so great if you have other commitments...
Cheers
Dan
[Edited on 7/6/12 by Bluemoon]
Padstar - 7/6/12 at 08:28 AM
Thanks for the help blue moon. I will check out the dvla requirements for a new plate.
The time is not an issue. I am in it for the knowledge and experience if it takes 3 years then so be it.
A new plate would be a massive bonus.
mcerd1 - 7/6/12 at 11:49 AM
you really need to look at as many examples of built cars as you can and make up your own mind when it comes to cost vs build quality
but ultimatly the quality of your build just comes down to the time, effort and skill you can put into it - ok more money make it easier too, but
I've seen a few westies with shocking build quality and a few locosts with stunning quality builds 
----
new plates require all bar one of the 'major' components to be new (with recipts to prove it)
as far as they are concerned the major components are:
* suspension (front and back)
* axles (front and back)
* steering assembly
* transmission
* engine
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_180218.pdf
if you really don't want a Q plate, but don't want to spend the money on a new plate either. then an 'age related' plates the one
for you 
that way you only need to prove that 2 or more major components from that list came from a donor car to get a plate the same age as the donor
(allowing you to get a personal plate at a later date)
Padstar - 7/6/12 at 07:24 PM
I had planned on everything being new (either fabricated myself or purchased) other than the following items;
Engine
Gearbox
Differential
But all of these are extremely expensive from what I can find. For a new plate as I understand it only 1 of these can be reconditioned. Is that
correct? Do you guys have a place where they can be picked up new at a reasonable price. Ideally I would get a fully recon diff and box with 2nd hand
engine but will that then lose me the new plate?
Can u get a V5 for a year based plate with only the engine?
Sorry for all the Q's
mcerd1 - 8/6/12 at 07:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
Can u get a V5 for a year based plate with only the engine?
no, but you could with the engine and transmission....
you could even get a new plate - you just need to find a '12' plate donor car and build it quickly
(MX5 on a cat C maybe)
the other issue with a new plate is that you need to meet the latest emissions standards....
with an older engine you only need to meet the same standard as the engines age (so pre Aug. 95 engines don't need a CAT ) then post IVA you
can always swap the engine for a newer one if you want
what engine / box / running gear are you planning to use at the moment ?
[Edited on 8/6/2012 by mcerd1]
Padstar - 8/6/12 at 08:49 AM
Ohh so complicated. Having a lower emissions requirement would be handy.
Thinking of using a duratec engine coupled with mk3 mx5 box which I believe works without any modification.
Slimy38 - 8/6/12 at 09:23 AM
I have to admit I'm deliberately eyeing up pre 95 MX5's as donor's, purely to avoid the majority of the emissions rules. I don't
see the benefit of a new plate (maybe higher resale value?) but conversely I don't want a Q plate.
Padstar - 13/6/12 at 12:53 PM
What year did mazda start droping the duratec into the MX5's?
Padstar - 13/6/12 at 01:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
I had planned on everything being new (either fabricated myself or purchased) other than the following items;
Engine
Gearbox
Differential
But all of these are extremely expensive from what I can find. For a new plate as I understand it only 1 of these can be reconditioned. Is that
correct? Do you guys have a place where they can be picked up new at a reasonable price. Ideally I would get a fully recon diff and box with 2nd hand
engine but will that then lose me the new plate?
Can u get a V5 for a year based plate with only the engine?
Sorry for all the Q's
Had a look at what is required to get a plate in line with teh donor vehicles age from the link given. Am i right in thinking a Haynes build would be
classed as a radically atered vehicle rather than a kit car?
Also if a new fabricated frame is made does this count towards 5 of the required 8 points? If not then it seems very hard to achieve a plate related
to the donor vehicle.
mcerd1 - 13/6/12 at 02:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
Also if a new fabricated frame is made does this count towards 5 of the required 8 points? If not then it seems very hard to achieve a plate related
to the donor vehicle.
the points system doesn't come into the age related plates for kit cars - it just needs 2 major components
for a radicaly altered vehicle the 'unmodifed' donor chassis would count in the points, but a new or modified one wound not count
Padstar - 9/7/12 at 08:53 PM
I now have myself a running gear from and mx5, it's V5 and a VIN plate cut out of it. Please can u explain what is now needed to get the plate
from the original.
I guess I need to keep hold of the original VIN plate but does it need to be welded onto the chasis anywhere?
I want to use as little of the original car as possible but want to keep the plate. What is the best 2 parts to use? How do they know that for
instance I have used the gearbox from the original car as 1 of the 2 major components? Is the VIN number stamped on each of the major compartments.
AdrianH - 9/7/12 at 09:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
I now have myself a running gear from and mx5, it's V5 and a VIN plate cut out of it. Please can u explain what is now needed to get the plate
from the original.
I guess I need to keep hold of the original VIN plate but does it need to be welded onto the chassis anywhere?
I want to use as little of the original car as possible but want to keep the plate. What is the best 2 parts to use? How do they know that for
instance I have used the gearbox from the original car as 1 of the 2 major components? Is the VIN number stamped on each of the major compartments.
The car will be inspected by the DVLA before any reg number is issued. You will not get the registration from the donor car, but if it is a K reg car
for example you could get a K reg number plate.
If you work out the points system you will work out if you will get an age related or Q. In the inspection they will check engine number is from the
donor and the guys doing it are not daft they look at vehicles most days so will know what gearboxes go with what engines etc.
The original VIN plate does not get used on the donor, try this and you will be accused of building a ringer.
The DVLA will issue you with a VIN number generally once inspected or at least in with the build, the numbers start with SABTVR0.
Adrian
Padstar - 12/7/12 at 09:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
The car will be inspected by the DVLA before any reg number is issued. You will not get the registration from the donor car, but if it is a K reg car
for example you could get a K reg number plate.
Adrian
Right I think I am with u all now. So if I take 2 major components from my running gear (for which I have the V5 document and VIN plate from original
car) then I will get an age related plate (1999) allocated to the car when it completes the SIV test.
If this is the case then moving onto the next question as I plan to use a mix of donor and new when picking the major components to what extent can I
mix
Suspension- will rear uprights, front uprights, hubs suffice from donor coupled with new wishbones and shocks?
Stealing assembly - I would like to use a new steering rack. If this is coupled with the balance from the donor will it be classed as a major
part tick in the box
Axles - roadster model, what parts will be classed as axle components used from an MX5?
I hope from the 3 above I will be able to obtain an age related plate from the donor
RK - 12/7/12 at 09:56 PM
Keep in mind some of the choices are larger chassis, and some are actually gargantuan compared to a Caterham or Birkin (Luego for example). Once you
have a certain look in mind, you can base your choice accordingly.
Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do, and saw it through without exemption
I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way
Do you want to be able to say this??
Padstar - 12/7/12 at 10:00 PM
RK. Not sure what u r getting at? I plan to build a Haynes roadster using the book and a few adaptions to the design I have found on the net. Want the
chasis to suit a standard pre formed she'll made for the roadster?
RK - 12/7/12 at 11:35 PM
Sorry, I was a bit to subtle I guess... with a Westerham or whatever, you can't say you did much more than bolt it together. With the Haynes,
you will have had a bigger hand in the design and finish of your car. I thought Paul Anka described it all quite well, so quoted him. Perhaps you
don't know Frank Sinatra.
The first part was just to say that the models are not the same dimensions: Haynes is a bit larger than standard "book", or original
Westfield size. But really, that just gives you more room inside, and more importantly, more room for different engine combos.
I have the same chassis as the MK Indy, which is approximately "book" size.
mcerd1 - 13/7/12 at 09:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
Right I think I am with u all now. So if I take 2 major components from my running gear (for which I have the V5 document and VIN plate from original
car) then I will get an age related plate (1999) allocated to the car when it completes the SIV test.
If this is the case then moving onto the next question as I plan to use a mix of donor and new when picking the major components to what extent can I
mix
Suspension- will rear uprights, front uprights, hubs suffice from donor coupled with new wishbones and shocks?
Stealing assembly - I would like to use a new steering rack. If this is coupled with the balance from the donor will it be classed as a major
part tick in the box
Axles - roadster model, what parts will be classed as axle components used from an MX5?
I hope from the 3 above I will be able to obtain an age related plate from the donor
the 'components' need to be what they would count as complete and unmodified...
suspension is not going to cut it as thats the wishbones and shocks
steering might if you used an MX5 rack
axles might (i.e. hubs & uprights) but I'm not sure what the DVLA think about that (I'm going to try that one with mine)
transmission could easily be counted (gearbox & diff - maybe drivshafts too, but I'm not sure were they draw the line)
and the engine would be easy, and its easy to prove becuase the number is on the donor's V5c 
(MX5 engines are a good starting point and can easy be swapped out for something else once the cars on the road )
Padstar - 15/7/12 at 10:56 AM
Ok so maybe the engine and transition could be an easier option as they would be relatively straightforward to change post registration.
Would the engine plus gearbox cut it as I had planned on upgrading the diff to a newer model as my donor has the older viscous diff which I have been
told is not that great?
chillis - 15/7/12 at 12:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padstar
3k all in - wow. I have always had the idea of new parts giving a new plate but thought the £ would prevent it. Are u only allowed 1 refurbished
part?
Surely the engine, gearbox, breaks and springs would eat a long way into 3k if purchased new??
For a new reg. you must use all new parts except for one which must be fully recond. and all recepts to prove.
The cost of the new parts is the killer and a westfield would be the best route here.
Build a haynes using a used donor will be much cheaper. though you would have to be lucky to do it for 3k, I guess you'd have to make absolutly
everything. AshG's build cost of 6k seems more realistic especially if you buy in the bodywork. Not sure who's still doing bodywork for the
haynes though as Saturn/NTS have stopped.
Have you considered the MEV exocet?
[Edited on 15/7/12 by chillis]
britishtrident - 15/7/12 at 12:49 PM
The best financial option by far is to buy something somebody else has already built (by that I mean a Westie or an MK) just make sure you buy
the best you can find.
Padstar - 15/7/12 at 05:53 PM
If I changed the dif for a later model would it be blatant and picked up easily by the inspectors? Even if I kept with a MX5 model. Do they have the
vin on the dif