clairetoo
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| posted on 18/5/14 at 09:36 AM |
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Megasquirt rich running problems
I've got a bit of a problem with my V6 - it drinks fuel like its 50p a litre..........average consumption is around 20mpg , no matter how I
drive , with a similar setup to that which I ran in my Fury (and that would average over 30 , with a best of 41 !)
I figured I have to do something now , I just noticed the back of the car has a coating of black soot after a run up to Harrogate - cruising around 65
managed a stunning 24mpg.....
I'm using an LC1 and gauge , the AFR at cruise is around 15 - I suspected a dodgy sensor or LC1 , so I just swapped the one off my Fury , along
with a new sensor - and the displayed readings are the same.......
I've tried three different sets of injectors , had numerous attempts at mapping it , even changed the entire throttle body setup..........and
its official - I have no idea whats going on 
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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Oddified
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| posted on 18/5/14 at 09:47 AM |
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First make sure there's absolutely no leaks in the exhaust, that can make the afr read lean when it's actualy running rich.
Ian
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mark chandler
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| posted on 18/5/14 at 01:16 PM |
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I thought I was having success tuning my car using a wideband sensor, when it went on a rolling road I gained 30bhp and the car was much nicer to
drive.
Suggest you bite the bullet and get it set up on the rollers.
In my case I was adding to much fuel, I used autotune and tuner studio.
Regards Mark
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scudderfish
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| posted on 18/5/14 at 03:33 PM |
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Go and see Dale at Bailey Performance http://baileyperformance.co.uk/ Not that far from you and does an excellent job.
Regards,
Dave
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 20/5/14 at 06:36 AM |
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Timing is just as critical as fueling. You may notice that even at idle if you change timing by 10 degrees you see huge swings in apparent AFR. For
example, my engine runs at 800rpm, 24kpa idle at ~15:1 using something around a 1.3ms d/c but also at 15:1, 34kpa with a 1.5ms d/c (I think I
remembered those the correct was round but I don't have the logs handy to check!
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daxtojeiro
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| posted on 22/5/14 at 09:18 PM |
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Email me a datalog of it driving for around half an hour at different speeds and the msq file
(Phil at extraefi . co . uk )
Phil
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clairetoo
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| posted on 22/5/14 at 09:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daxtojeiro
Email me a datalog of it driving for around half an hour at different speeds and the msq file
(Phil at extraefi . co . uk )
Phil
Computer numpty question coming up.........how do I do that ? I have been running megasquirt for best part of ten years now , and still havnt worked
that one out......
I also seem to be suffering from `wondering map syndrome'........drive it from cold , its fine , do a bit of auto-tuning , and its fine . Switch
it off for ten minutes , and it runs completely differently - usually so waek it will barely run , spitting back and stalling , AFR's of around
18 to 20.........or it will be black smoking , super rich ?
This is all pushing me towards Omex.........there is no way I would get it rolling-roaded , since the map will only last untill its switched
off......
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 22/5/14 at 10:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by daxtojeiro
Email me a datalog of it driving for around half an hour at different speeds and the msq file
(Phil at extraefi . co . uk )
Phil
Computer numpty question coming up.........how do I do that ? I have been running megasquirt for best part of ten years now , and still havnt worked
that one out......
I also seem to be suffering from `wondering map syndrome'........drive it from cold , its fine , do a bit of auto-tuning , and its fine . Switch
it off for ten minutes , and it runs completely differently - usually so waek it will barely run , spitting back and stalling , AFR's of around
18 to 20.........or it will be black smoking , super rich ?
This is all pushing me towards Omex.........there is no way I would get it rolling-roaded , since the map will only last untill its switched
off......
Where is your air temp sensor? Running lean from hot start can sometimes be down to false air temp reading.
It's nothing at all to do with what ECU you pick, if you can't sort megasquirt your less likely to sort OMEX. The tuning software fir
megasquirt is simpler that MAP3000/4000 for OMEX.
You said wandering MAP? Assume your using Alpha N - if the the curser moves up without you moving the throttle you have noise issues.
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clairetoo
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| posted on 23/5/14 at 06:14 AM |
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Not wondering MAP.......wondering map(ping).........the fuelling is different from one start to the next . Its fine every time with laptop plugged in
, but I cant just run it - it needs constant fiddling .
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 23/5/14 at 08:34 AM |
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Check your air temp reading, heat soak (after a run) can heat up the sensor, on restart (due to a falsely high reading) puts less fuel in - causing
lean mixture and poping. You then change something in the map to compensate.
Where is your air temp sensor?
Also, are your sure your throttle bodies are balanced spot on?
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daxtojeiro
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| posted on 23/5/14 at 09:36 AM |
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Hi,
have a look here for info on how to datalog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D889vh7La0w
email me if you need a hand and I can show you what to do,
thanks
Phil
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Oddified
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| posted on 26/5/14 at 12:46 PM |
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As well as the air temp sensor/heat soak mentioned, that can also be a sign that you've got to much idle advance and a virtualy closed throttle.
Less idle ign advance, open the idle screw slightly to get the tick over back and the idle afr is much easier to get stable/consistent.
Ian
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clairetoo
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| posted on 29/5/14 at 09:56 PM |
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Heat soak on the temp sensor was definitely a problem - its now moved to the rear of the airbox , in the airflow , and the readings are nice and
stable .
I've tried backing off the timing at tickover - but how far can I go ? I'm down to 9 degrees BTDC , and its still ticking over faster than
I like , despite being pulled back from 12 degrees........
The biggest problem is fuel consumption - no matter what I do with fueling or timing , no matter how I drive it , it does 20mpg..........and the rear
of the car is covered in black soot , even running AFR's around 16 at cruise.
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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jwhatley
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| posted on 30/5/14 at 08:08 AM |
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Are you running wideband control?
You ideally want a wideband lambada with AFR targets set, it will auto correct to the AFR set by you then.
Omex is a big step up from mega squirt. Why not look in to an emerald k3 or k6. They have plenty of options and all the map settings you will ever
need plus Dave will probably be able to give you a fairly close base map to start with.
John
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Oddified
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| posted on 30/5/14 at 08:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
I've tried backing off the timing at tickover - but how far can I go ? I'm down to 9 degrees BTDC , and its still ticking over faster than
I like , despite being pulled back from 12 degrees........
If the engine is fairly standard, there's no need to run lots of timing at idle, 4 or 5 degrees btdc is plenty. With an ecu the days of having
to run lots of idle timing to compensate for a rubbish advance curve in a clockwork dizzy are long gone. Put some extra timing below the idle rpm
sites to help the idle when cold/under load. On the other hand, most engines like lots of timing at light loads/cruising rpms ramping up to around 45
- 50 deg btdc and that has a huge effect on the mpg.
Ian
[Edited on 30/5/14 by Oddified]
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 30/5/14 at 10:40 AM |
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Where is the lambda probe? From what I remember you have dual exhausts all the way to the back.
Is it possible that one bank of cylinders is getting less airflow (hence rich, hence sooty) than the other bank, and you are measuring the healthy
bank?
What do the plugs look like?
Wandering fueling, tricky. Fuel pressure regulator or some other source of variable fuel pressure would be my guess. Fuel tank vent valve, good
quality pressure regulator, stable voltage to pump, clean fuel filters, no kinking of return line.
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 30/5/14 at 07:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jwhatley
Are you running wideband control?
You ideally want a wideband lambada with AFR targets set, it will auto correct to the AFR set by you then.
Omex is a big step up from mega squirt. Why not look in to an emerald k3 or k6. They have plenty of options and all the map settings you will ever
need plus Dave will probably be able to give you a fairly close base map to start with.
John
Megasquirt 2 will do all you need, omex 710 has no advantage at all over MS2. In fact tunerstudio is better then MAP3000 (having said that I'm
told MAP4000 is better but not used it yet)
It's really daft to think simple tuning issues can be resolved with a change if ECU, the chances are the same problems will exist with Omex or
emerald. The engine in question is basic, no fancy VVT or inlet manifolds.
We have installed megasquirt on all sorts of engines, always had good results, we have mapped over 100 MS's
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shaunod
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| posted on 12/6/14 at 10:31 PM |
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Sounds like it just needs some close attention on the mapping. I defy anyone to explain why Omex, Emerald or pretty well any other after market
system is 'better' than your MS2 for the job it is being used ... simply not true. In truth there is very little between them other than
the software ... and Tuner Studio makes most of them look like year 10 software projects!
Get Bailey to map it for you ... or at least get someone out in the car with you to map it while you drive ... or do some data logging and send it to
Phil (daxtojeiro) ... it sounds as though you have a few minor map setup issues that are causing you problems ... I would strongly recommend sticking
with it .. spending a small fortune on another version of the hardware in a different box just doesn't make sense.
Just my opinion of course, but I am an Omex trained and approved installer!!
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clairetoo
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 06:02 AM |
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I did get it on a rolling road for a full set up on Tuesday - with the emphasis firmly on smooth running and economy , not trying to squeeze every
last horse out of it...........
It was very quickly found that the Lc1 wasn't reading right - and I had been relying on it for mapping.......
It now runs better , emissions and fueling along with timing sorted - and its made no difference
No matter how I drive it does 20mpg - and thats at 30mph , 60mph , or ragging the arse off it - everything points to running rich (black sooty
exhaust) but its not ?
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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shaunod
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 08:43 AM |
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Okay ... so the lambda in the exhaust is showing good readings ... but you are using too much fuel ... have you checked the exhaust temperatures on
each exhaust header ? You must remember that the lambda reading you are relying on is a combination of all cylinders output ... if all of the
cylinders are not running equally .. then you may have one weak cylinder which is making the AFR read what is a very rich mixture on the other
cylinders and appear correct. I have had situations where one injector was barely firing .. leaving the mixture very weak on that cylinder .. but the
overall exhaust looked about right .. try using either a decent pyrometer or a good laser temp gun to check that all cylinders are of close to equal
temp. Check the dwell settings for the coil packs ... if they are wrong that will cause lambda values to vary. Confirm TDC mark on the pulley with a
check on #1 piston (whip the plug out and check that the piston is at TDC when the mark on the pulley shows TDC)
My best advice would be to run the following tests;
1) Check exhaust temps - they should be within about 30 degrees C really.
2) Check the timing - as described above
3) Check the dwell settings for the coil pack - In tuner studio - Ignition settings
4) Try pulling one injector plug off at a time and see how the AFR is affected - if pulling one of makes little difference you have probably located
the fault.
If all else fails - Give me a ring!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 10:37 AM |
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Claire, where in the exhaust is your LC-1? Does it just read for one bank? If it does, it could be the other bank causing the problems but it
won't show up. That's could also give a different reading between your LC-1 and a probe at the tail of the exhaust.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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DW100
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 11:37 AM |
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Have you got consistent fuel pressure?
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shaunod
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 02:32 PM |
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I am mapping in Derby on Sunday .. if you want me to pop in on the way home I would be glad to take a look.
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clairetoo
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 05:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by shaunod
I am mapping in Derby on Sunday .. if you want me to pop in on the way home I would be glad to take a look.
Feel free to pop round - there has to be something that no one has spotted yet................
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 13/6/14 at 06:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by shaunod
I am mapping in Derby on Sunday .. if you want me to pop in on the way home I would be glad to take a look.
Feel free to pop round - there has to be something that no one has spotted yet................
Are you sure it's not misfiring? You posted a vid ages ago of you driving the car - it was on 5 cylinders at best.
The suggestion of checking header temp is a good one, you may have a miss (one header much cooler that the rest)
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