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BEC pros & cons
ross05 - 27/2/12 at 08:03 AM

Looking at buying a kit car aug / sept westfield or sylva.

what are the pros and cons re bike engine cars?

I like the idea of bike engine as I was a motorcycle instructor,but how well do they adapt in a car!

what should be avoided / what is the ideal setup ?


how does the bec compare with say a 1800zetec or cvh/pinto?


cheers Russell

scootz - 27/2/12 at 08:10 AM

Morning Russell.

I suggest you stick the kettle on and make yourself a mug of coffee... then search the forum using "CEC v BEC" or similar terms!

Loads of reading to be found as this debate comes up regularly!

ali f27 - 27/2/12 at 08:25 AM

Hi bec great toy tear about trackday race etc pain in the arse long journey crusing etc Cec great long jouney more use if you want to do more miles
Zetec cheap good spares etc short on power duratec more expensive to make fit but can tune for real power way faster than any bec apart from busa turbo

ReMan - 27/2/12 at 08:27 AM

Lightweight car - Lightweight engine

ross05 - 27/2/12 at 08:36 AM

cheers,

kettle on lets see what we can find!!!!!

thinking more for road use,sounds like bec a bit of a pain on the road (town driving) !!!

shame quite fancied a modern 4 wheeled bike.....

Russell

[Edited on 27/2/12 by ross05]

ali f27 - 27/2/12 at 08:41 AM

Not trying to put you off bec we have both just gearing and torque issuses etc sequential box is great fun you need to have a go in both before you decide someone on here will offer i am sure

ReMan - 27/2/12 at 08:45 AM

Properly set up and geared there should be no issues with driving a BEC on the road everyday

motorcycle_mayhem - 27/2/12 at 08:57 AM

Stick to a Ford/Vauxhall/Car-Engined car. Car engines were designed for cars, you're looking at a car. Lots of torque, from a Chevy V8 (usually found in a Dax), to a smaller lump (normally found in Westfields, etc.). The old Pinto lump still represents the pinnacle of kit car powerplants. The engines themselves often come with nice bodywork around them as standard, with cup holders, heated seats and all sorts of essential stuff.

Bike engines produce very little torque, are unreliable. Nothing smaller than a Hayabusa is worth considering. There's no reverse as standard, just all far too much hassle really. I wouldn't use one.

ceebmoj - 27/2/12 at 09:18 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ali f27
Hi bec great toy tear about trackday race etc pain in the arse long journey crusing etc Cec great long jouney more use if you want to do more miles
Zetec cheap good spares etc short on power duratec more expensive to make fit but can tune for real power way faster than any bec apart from busa turbo


I have always been interested by this point of view. I have been using my BEC a lot including in traffic rush hour driving and have found nether the lack of torque or the clutch a problem. my longest motorway drive was 1 hour so maby I would notice it more with time.

welderman - 27/2/12 at 09:20 AM

BEC all the way for me, ive had 3 now builing my fourth. Done thousands of miles, track and road.

get intouch with Bob from spain, bobinspain is his user name, he might be close by to you, he has a BEC

loggyboy - 27/2/12 at 09:27 AM

There is only one thing that would swing me to a BEC - if I wanted a sequential change without spending £ks on a quaife or similar car gearbox.
All the other 'fors and againsts' can be offset and balanced out by various vaild arguments.

The Venom Project - 27/2/12 at 09:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Stick to a Ford/Vauxhall/Car-Engined car. Car engines were designed for cars, you're looking at a car. Lots of torque, from a Chevy V8 (usually found in a Dax), to a smaller lump (normally found in Westfields, etc.). The old Pinto lump still represents the pinnacle of kit car powerplants. The engines themselves often come with nice bodywork around them as standard, with cup holders, heated seats and all sorts of essential stuff.

Bike engines produce very little torque, are unreliable. Nothing smaller than a Hayabusa is worth considering. There's no reverse as standard, just all far too much hassle really. I wouldn't use one.


You have to be kidding with reliability?

You won't go wrong with a Jap engine, I have owned 11 bikes, non ever let me down, done some serious miles on them, the power is awesome, you say no torque, what about a V-Twin engine?

You would find a Honda SP1 engine to have more than enough power for any Kit Car like a Westfield etc:

Bike engines produce more power for the money than a car engine, if you stick to R1, Fireblade, Busa, there are millions of them for parts. Carbs work much faster and smoother than a car, which is why a lot of people have a manifold made up to accept Bike Carbs.

Of course it all depends how you have it setup, but my TR1KE set running standard chain and sprockets will give more fun per mile than any car powered vehicle.

ReMan - 27/2/12 at 09:58 AM

Kidding or trolling

ali f27 - 27/2/12 at 10:17 AM

coudn,t put a sp1 in a westfield not enough carbon fibre on it

wylliezx9r - 27/2/12 at 11:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Stick to a Ford/Vauxhall/Car-Engined car. Car engines were designed for cars, you're looking at a car. Lots of torque, from a Chevy V8 (usually found in a Dax), to a smaller lump (normally found in Westfields, etc.). The old Pinto lump still represents the pinnacle of kit car powerplants. The engines themselves often come with nice bodywork around them as standard, with cup holders, heated seats and all sorts of essential stuff.

Bike engines produce very little torque, are unreliable. Nothing smaller than a Hayabusa is worth considering. There's no reverse as standard, just all far too much hassle really. I wouldn't use one.


My car "only" has a 900, 150 bhp @ fly wheel, 510 kg wet weight. Near enough 300 bhp/tonne. This is the low end of BEC engines and it goes like stink. Torque is not an issue at all and the sequential box is brilliant flat out or just trotting around.

I would suggest trying both and making your own mind up.

loggyboy - 27/2/12 at 11:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Stick to a Ford/Vauxhall/Car-Engined car. Car engines were designed for cars, you're looking at a car. Lots of torque, from a Chevy V8 (usually found in a Dax), to a smaller lump (normally found in Westfields, etc.). The old Pinto lump still represents the pinnacle of kit car powerplants. The engines themselves often come with nice bodywork around them as standard, with cup holders, heated seats and all sorts of essential stuff.

Bike engines produce very little torque, are unreliable. Nothing smaller than a Hayabusa is worth considering. There's no reverse as standard, just all far too much hassle really. I wouldn't use one.


Why is it a few havent spotted the intended humor in this post.... lol

I mean just look at the 'building' section of his username!

fesycresy - 27/2/12 at 11:41 AM

or the comment,

The old Pinto lump still represents the pinnacle of kit car powerplants

scudderfish - 27/2/12 at 12:05 PM

Pinto, Hyabusa etc are all gutless rubbish!

Stick a V8 in it

Rod Ends - 27/2/12 at 12:23 PM

CEC

BEC

wylliezx9r - 27/2/12 at 12:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Stick to a Ford/Vauxhall/Car-Engined car. Car engines were designed for cars, you're looking at a car. Lots of torque, from a Chevy V8 (usually found in a Dax), to a smaller lump (normally found in Westfields, etc.). The old Pinto lump still represents the pinnacle of kit car powerplants. The engines themselves often come with nice bodywork around them as standard, with cup holders, heated seats and all sorts of essential stuff.

Bike engines produce very little torque, are unreliable. Nothing smaller than a Hayabusa is worth considering. There's no reverse as standard, just all far too much hassle really. I wouldn't use one.


Why is it a few havent spotted the intended humor in this post.... lol

I mean just look at the 'building' section of his username!


Oops missed the username. Must try harder !

ReMan - 27/2/12 at 12:58 PM

I liked this bit ;D
"The engines themselves often come with nice bodywork around them as standard, with cup holders, heated seats and all sorts of essential stuff"

Hellfire - 27/2/12 at 01:14 PM

Copied & pasted from previous posts. As it is a definitive guide though, maybe we should get it made into a Sticky............

Lets deal with bike engines first.....

Pro’s

1 - Performance - Standard bike engine and gearbox = more bhp/kg than your standard car engine and gearbox (in most cases) which makes for awesome acceleration
2 - 13,000 rpm Soundtrack - Superb noise
3 - Advanced Technology. How many normally aspirated 1,200cc car engines do you know that produce 180 Bhp?
4 - Lightweight & compact = Easier to handle and no need for special lifting gear
5 - Mechanically, they are easier to maintain. Clutch changes etc
6 - Cheaper Vehicle Excise Duty (Tax, to you and me)
7 - Far cheaper import tax (In case you ever consider emigrating to somewhere like……… Cyprus)
8 - Smaller & easier to clean – therefore more environmentally friendly

Con’s

1 - Standard bike engine is likely to be more expensive than your standard car engine

I haven't included 'no reverse gear' because that can be both a 'Pro' and a 'Con'

Now onto car engines (apart from Honda S2000, which technically in my mind is made by Honda, so also a bike engine)

Pro's

Nope, can't think of any. I'm really struggling on this one..............

Con's

1 - Too heavy
2 - Too slow
3 - Too oily
4 - Unreliable
5 - It's a car engine

So there you have it...... A definitive guide to the pro's and con's of BEC & CEC.......

Now onto the 'red herring' that the CEC boys like to throw in regarding torque;

It is quite difficult to compare torque like for like in BEC v CEC. There is a common misconception that bike engines lack torque due to figures being quoted at the crank. But what you need to consider, is that bike engines have a torque multiplier in the form of a primary reduction gear. So in the real world, BEC torque actually isn't as low as it would first appear............

Phil

[Edited on 27-2-12 by Hellfire]

loggyboy - 27/2/12 at 02:05 PM

Lets just unbias this a little and stick to (mainly) facts. (IMO!)

BECS
Pro’s

1 - Weight - light weight means more BHP/Tonne
2 - Lightweight & compact = Easier to handle and no need for special lifting gear
3 - Built on Sequential Gearbox.
4 - Cheaper Vehicle Excise Duty (Road tac) based on most bike engines being under 1549cc. (£130.00 where as anything over 1549cc is £215)
5 - Smaller /more compact - easier instalation into small engine bays (ie midi style car)

Con’s

1 - Bike engines are likely to be more expensive than a car engine
2- Gearboxes can be considered 'rough' or 'harsh' for slower driving.
3 - No reverse - New required for IVA, so you will need an expensive reverse gearbox, or a custom 'starter motor' based reverse set up.
4 - Lack of torque, despite any arguments its not the case, BECs do generlly have a lot less torque than CECs, and as BECs are intended to be used on sub 200kg bikes, sticking them im a 500kg kit can lead to needing to be in the right gear at the right time, everytime.
5 - (linked with above), Gear ratios can be harder to get 'right'.
6 - If aiming for a 'New registration' then using a 'reconditioned to as new ' bike engine/gearbox combo counts as 2 components, meaning you will need to use (or atleast provide evidence) that the engine is 'new'


Neutral These can be used as pros or cons depending on your preference
Noise - Bike engines sound great, but are also loud!

CECS
Pro's

1. Cheaper and easier to come by.
2. Higher levels of torque to suit the weight of a kit car.
3. Engines are seperate to gearboxes meaning an easier 'new registration' should that be your preference
4. 1 Donor build (ie 1 donor car, and kit car chassis/parts and you have all you need)

Con's

1 - Heavier than BECs

[Edited on 28/2/12 by loggyboy]

ross05 - 27/2/12 at 02:09 PM

excellent info looks like a BEC for me or is it a CEC need to drive one when back in the uk

electric reverse is it any good ?


cheers chaps

Russell

[Edited on 27/2/12 by ross05]

Andy D - 27/2/12 at 02:20 PM

If you're intending to do trackdays, a big "con" with a BEC is noise. Circuits are getting tighter on noise limits all the time.

Anyway, here's a vid of my slow, heavy, unreliable... oily, granted! Pinto chasing a BEC round Teesside kart track. (With a queasy passenger on board)

BEC v Anchor

motorcycle_mayhem - 27/2/12 at 03:45 PM

Forgot to add that bike engined cars are hopeless in the wet, that no torque and all-or-nothing thing again, hopeless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEH1kn3HqE

The Venom Project - 27/2/12 at 04:35 PM

Mine is pretty useless in the wet, but I put that down to 1 wheel drive at the back

Custardpants - 27/2/12 at 05:47 PM

I have a busa powered Indy, and it really is a matter of taste, the car is stunning but only if you drive it like a banzai mental asylum ninja escapee. Then the seq shift works beautifully and it all just comes alive and eats up a good driving road. In town or stuck behind a convoy of day dreaming holiday makers it is more awkward though, and less refined to drive slowly.
If you just want to go out and use the car in a legalish and slow way including occasional motorway trips, then the CEC is better. As the longest tunnel in the UK is only just down the road BEC was the only choice for me, in the tunnel it is glorious.

By the way - any BEC torque doubters are welcome to come out in my car. It pulls strong from low revs but if you're driving the car properly you're always in the right gear anyway!

eddie99 - 27/2/12 at 05:49 PM

I race a BEC and have a CEC Seven on the road... Personally if its for track then BEC, if its for short road journeys, maybe BEC otherwise its CEC for a road toy. However the 3rd car is a race CEC........

Hugh_ - 27/2/12 at 06:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
Properly set up and geared there should be no issues with driving a BEC on the road everyday


I agree, the issues from using a BEC on the road aren't to do with problems for the car.

I had a Fury fireblade with aeroscreen, it was fantastic fun on the road for a fast jaunt, and great on the track. The performance even with a relatively modest 893, the occasion of the sequential box and clutchless shifts, it was a right hoot. However, it was never relaxing to drive in traffic or at any speed for long periods. The clunking that came from the gearbox/diff, particularly when selecting from N-1 always worried my mechanically sympathetic side, as did clutch life of moving a something much heavier than the bike it was from off the line meant I was always t gentle getting it going (despite having heavy duty clutch springs fitted).

I have since changed to a car engined locost also with aeroscreen, admitedly it isn't particularly standard so it's power delivery is not that disimilar to the bike engine in as much as you need to be 40% of the way through the rev range before it makes good power, and at 70% before it really sings. It is better to drive in traffic, and I dont worry about getting off the line swiftly. On a fast road drives or track it is a slightly different experience because of the gearbox, but fundamentally that is the only difference.

Regardless of whether you go for CEC of BEC these cars aren't great to travel any distance at speed, the wind noise at 75mph is the overwhelming noise whether its a CEC at 3.5k revs or a BEC at 7k revs. If you have a flat windscreen (eg. as fitted to all 7 type cars) instead of an aeroscreen the buffetting is just as bad unless you fit fullheight side screens which make them feel claustrophic and horrible IMHO.

If you are worried about the ability to do any motorway work personally I would go for one with a curved windscreen such as a Fury, Pheonix, Stylus, Mojo etc. and not worry about the engine type from that respect.

Hellfire - 27/2/12 at 06:26 PM

Just go for a spin in both and then decide which bike engine to fit

Phil

Proby - 27/2/12 at 07:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Just go for a spin in both and then decide which bike engine to fit

Phil


.

I knew this was going to be another great divide!

As said, try both. I've had 2 BEC's previously and love 'em.

maccmike - 27/2/12 at 07:03 PM

Hi, bike engine every time. Iv got a zzr1100 in 350kg's. Parts are pretty cheap. Easy to work on. Sequential box, but no revrese on mine. The screaming revs! If Gordon Murray says power to weight is everything, who am I to argue. You want absolute minimum of a 900 or you'll have no torque.

coozer - 27/2/12 at 07:37 PM

You need one of these...

welderman - 27/2/12 at 07:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
You need one of these...



One of what. All I can see is pretty looking woman

Davegtst - 27/2/12 at 08:20 PM

This is quite a simple question to answer.


Bec driver =








Cec driver =




ali f27 - 28/2/12 at 04:28 AM

Hi been looking on tinternet cannot find Holden bike engine

bobinspain - 28/2/12 at 08:54 AM

Russell,

Jump on the trans-Med express and get yourself up to Las Fuentes and I'll take you out in my 'toy'. I echo everything that 95% of the posters say on here, (Custardpants (Luke) in particular, because he has the same car).

Motorcycle_mayhem's comments about cup-holders and heated seats are very important issues out here in Spain and should be taken seriously, (like driving in rain!------- What's that?)

ross05 - 28/2/12 at 09:00 AM

cheers Bob,

how are you getting on with bike power,thought I would give you time to adjust!! no cup holder could be a problem


speak soon

cheers Russ

adithorp - 28/2/12 at 09:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Lets just unbias this a little and stick to (mainly) facts. (IMO!)...

6 - If aiming for a 'New registration' then using a 'recondishoned to as new ' bike engine/gearbox combo counts as 2 components, meaning you will need to use (or atleast provide evidence) that the engine is 'new'




Well if we're sticking to "facts"...

Where do you get point six from?
My R1 engine/'box counted as one component and I got a new reg. There's plenty more out there. I asked DVLA in advance, stating that it was a single unit and their answer was "Can you use one bit without the other? If not then we'll count it as one". Think about it. If you use a front wheel drive engine and box in a middy, would that be three items? Engine , gearbox and diff'?

Then there's...

"can't tour/do more than an hour, in a BEC"...?
Well after 2x3000+mile tours to the Alps/Med and several 500mile days in mine; Yes you can. A seven isn't exactly a GT car whatever engine is in it but if you want seat of the pants motoring then yes it can be done... and it's great fun. To say you can't tour a BEC is the same as a Goldwing owner saying you can't tour on a sports bike.

BECs are unreliable...?
I'll refer you back to the last answer.

You can't drive in town/traffic...?
If it's set up well there's no reason why not. Been stuck in Genova city cantre in rush hour with heavy traffic, 90' temps and thousands of mopeds around with 2 other R1 cars and it was no less pleasnt than if it'd been zetecs.

Yes, BECs are raw. The transmission is a bit clunky at times but at others it's sweet. They're loud but then so are all 7s just different pitch) and at speed most of the noise you experience is wind buffeting so the same whatever powers the car.

loggyboy - 28/2/12 at 09:39 AM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Lets just unbias this a little and stick to (mainly) facts. (IMO!)...

6 - If aiming for a 'New registration' then using a 'recondishoned to as new ' bike engine/gearbox combo counts as 2 components, meaning you will need to use (or atleast provide evidence) that the engine is 'new'




Well if we're sticking to "facts"...

Where do you get point six from?
My R1 engine/'box counted as one component and I got a new reg. There's plenty more out there. I asked DVLA in advance, stating that it was a single unit and their answer was "Can you use one bit without the other? If not then we'll count it as one". Think about it. If you use a front wheel drive engine and box in a middy, would that be three items? Engine , gearbox and diff'?


Was your engine gearbox a recon or new?

Not sure about your other points as none were mentioned in my post, but were in the 'comedy' post prior to mine.

bobinspain - 28/2/12 at 09:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Forgot to add that bike engined cars are hopeless in the wet, that no torque and all-or-nothing thing again, hopeless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEH1kn3HqE



Utter madness! Easy on the tyres though. I bet visibility was around 30% of standard.
Not my idea of fun, (but then I was a 'fair-weather-golfer too).

ross05 - 28/2/12 at 10:00 AM

well I am sold looks like bike power for me,the vids are great.


thankyou all for your comments

aug / sept we will be looking for BIKE POWER


cheers RUSSELL

adithorp - 28/2/12 at 10:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Lets just unbias this a little and stick to (mainly) facts. (IMO!)...

6 - If aiming for a 'New registration' then using a 'recondishoned to as new ' bike engine/gearbox combo counts as 2 components, meaning you will need to use (or atleast provide evidence) that the engine is 'new'




Well if we're sticking to "facts"...

Where do you get point six from?
My R1 engine/'box counted as one component and I got a new reg. There's plenty more out there. I asked DVLA in advance, stating that it was a single unit and their answer was "Can you use one bit without the other? If not then we'll count it as one". Think about it. If you use a front wheel drive engine and box in a middy, would that be three items? Engine , gearbox and diff'?


Was your engine gearbox a recon or new?

Not sure about your other points as none were mentioned in my post, but were in the 'comedy' post prior to mine.


Eggine/box was my one "reconditioned as new" item

Yes wasn't refering to your post with the other bits and despite the "comedy" nature of the post, they are point's that get trotted out regularly.

I did the LeMans Classic with a car engined Fury owner as passenger and his verdict on suitability of touring a BEC... Just the same as his!

loggyboy - 29/2/12 at 04:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp

Eggine/box was my one "reconditioned as new" item

Yes wasn't refering to your post with the other bits and despite the "comedy" nature of the post, they are point's that get trotted out regularly.

I did the LeMans Classic with a car engined Fury owner as passenger and his verdict on suitability of touring a BEC... Just the same as his!


I guess its the usual DVLA lottery - I only mentioned that as Cloudy ended up with a Q plate after his recon box/gbox was classed as engine and gearbox, rather than the 1 recon'd part.

Pezza - 29/2/12 at 05:21 PM

I had a cec first off then when I decided to build my own I went for the bec for a change, love it

Oh and dvla can be hopeless.
I went for an age related plate, all receipts etc, agreed I would get age related (89)
But I had a private reg to go on as the first reg, that obviously confused them and I ended up with it being a 2011 new plate if I want to transfer it back again !
Not that i'm complaing mind, the local office was very helpfull and a pleasure to deal with.