As title says im looking for engines and originally was gonna go for carb model R1's but now starting to think the injection model might be a better buy for a couple of hundred more.

I would have to run another fuel line down the tunnell and would need to do something to the tank to fit the fuel pump and swirl pot.

What else would i need to do that is different to installing carb model engine apart from the extra wiring.

And is it worth it ?

i looked into FI vs carbs when i was sourcing an engine and in the end it was only the fact that there was a carb going cheap nearby that clinched it.
the engine will cost a few hundred more, but you will also need a power commander which is another couple. (but you will save a little by not needing a dynojet kit)

its also apparently trickier to install and set up for emissions. i can understand the installation thing but i'd have thought that total control over the mapping would have meant it would be fairly easy to do an sva map and then change to a 'full fat' one after

oh, and if you get a power commander you'd HAVE to get a laptop to plug in and play with it. for coolness at the very least

Hmm sounds cool only thing is i wouldnt have a clue what to do on the mapping side of things and would probably end up make it run like a bag of turd ! So would leave that bit for the pros

Already passed SVA so dont have to worry bout that although MOT's could be a problem.

Hi guys,

Just to clarify you don't need to use a Power Commander (now you have passed SVA) as long as you use an airfilter of some sort.

I did some testing on Dave Walkers rolling road using a TTS sausage airfilter and a Fisher exhaust and the mapping was spot on without it. Dave reckoned there is some adjustment in the stock system that corrects for the slight differences (MAP?).

Of course, there is more power to be had by tweaking so a Power Commander is a nice to have.

With regards to installation, there is no doubt there are a lot more sensors and wires with the injected engine. However, it's just more of the same and if I could do it.......

Some of the engine mounts are different, and you will need a high pressure fuel system (high pressure hose, fuel lines with return, baffled tank/swirl pot, injection filter).

My 2p (for what it's worth) having driven carbed and injected is that the injected is well worth the extra hassle. Low down torque is much improved and mine pulled cleaner for 5mph than my A4 did!

Perhaps Jim G or Chris, who have used both for long periods of time, might give a better compare/contrast.

Only downside I can see is emmisions, as I took 3 SVA's to pass even with Power Commander and a cat. I passed but don't know how and it was by a whisker!!

Jim would be the ideal one to ask as he's done both having recently replaced his carbed engine with an Injected one. One thing to bear in mind is that the sump is lower on the injected engine so normal carbed engine mounts made to fit may still sit the engine too low (as Jim found out)

Ive never really got my hands dirty with a carbed engine so couldnt really comment, but although there were more sensors etc as mentioned, I didnt find it significantly more taxing to install than the original carbed blade I put in.

Chris

A fuel injected engine will need two fuel lines to the tank, a send and a return.

Both carbed and FI engines will need to be tuned if a different exhaust and filter is used but neither need it if the stock airbox and pipes are used. not much to choose there.

Power and torque for pre 2004 engines are very similar whether FI or carbed.

There isn't much to choose between them. Like Dillinger1977, I was thinking about FI until a cheap carbed engine came up for sale.

For me the 5JJ is the one to have. It had a stronger clutch and a longer 1st gear than the 4XV.

Unless you go for the more powerful 2004 model, there isnt much between the carb and injection engines and the extra few hundred pounds (plus power commander for me as mine would need SVAd), wouldnt be worth it. Plus, I was interested to hear about the different engine mounts, that would be a player.

It has been said above but you might be lucky and the stock map may adapt enough to compensate or, it may be a dog without a power commander. I cannot honestly see how a stock map could cope with such a radically different exhaust from the bike to the car and an open filter. Like Smart51 says, if its on the bike it stands more of a sporting chance. Im not arguing with anyone findings, might just have been a particularly good match.

Generally bike ECUs in stock form can manage a panel filter and end can. Anything more than that and they cannot compensate enough and will not produce the goods. You may be lucky and it may just be a bit off, you may be unlucky and it maybe running badly lean. This was certainly the case with my last two GSXRs, fine with an end can and filter but awful with anything else.

If you have the 2002/2003 clocks there is actually a way of crudely tuning the injected engine to partially compensate. I would have to dig it out as its not a terribly well known feature, but you enter a certain mode on the dash which then allows you to tweak the richness of each cylinder independently. I believe its a blanket setting for all RPM range so not exactly a perfect solution, but it may help weaken it off slightly for SVA or richen it up to suit a free-er flowing induction / exhaust.

Thats a pretty useful function, although a bit crude, might assist things along.

For future info, here's a thread that describes how to do it. Ive never tried it and whether its 100% factually accurate for European spec bike I don't know, but possibly worth a try

R1-Forum.com link

Chris

I think everything has been said here already.

My experience was that the carbed engine is certainly very straightforward to install. The Injection needs a little bit more thought due in the main to the additional wiring. The conversion from one motor to another was more of a pain than I expected due to the need to raise the engine 25mm. This had the knock on effect on the exhaust not fitting and engine mount requiring modification. A high pressure FI pump was required and a return to the tank.

The electrics are generally straight forward so long as the wiring diagram is followed carefully. I had one brain fade moment not connecting the feed to the FI pump but other than that it was all okay.

The main reason I have decided to go for the FI engine was after a ride in a friends fury which although similar in straight line performance to my old carbed motor it was a lot more tractible with no flat spots.

There is plenty of knowledge here and elsewhere that can help a builder with either the carb or the FI engine so its just a case of pays your money and make your choice.

Cheers

Jim

I think Jim has summed it up. Im still not 100% decided but I think its going to be a late carbed motor. It sounds better to make the choice early on and not bu66er about changing from carbed to FI later on. Its enough of a job for only a hike in performance (ie up to a ZX12 or Busa) to warrant it. For me this is probably the way Id go. I like tinkering with carbs having played with FI too, Ill probably opt for the carbed motor and then if an upgrade is on the cards it will be to a larger capacity motor.

I dont think anyone would be offended by the performance of either model and its fair to say, having riden both carbs and FI, the FI is a smoother, more refined option (you cant do the PB style kill the ignition, coast, ignition - bang though!!). It sounds as though FI comes at the premium of additional cost and complexity of install.

Like Jim says, you pays yours money, you ...........

Rich


[Edited on 4/2/06 by RichieC]

my zx12r does the coast along bang without turning the ignition off.. lol

well it did until i closed the exhaust air inlet (Clean Air system)

I was all over the place about deciding

the injection engine is very smooth

the carbed engine is quite fierce hence why quite a lot of people were killed when the bike was first released

it was a good price at the time so I went carb

I think one of the first reviews was

"dont kid yourself and think you are in control of the bike because you are not!

I shall get mine running and get used to it for a month then when the nice weather comes I shall buy the R1 turbo kit from MC XPRESS..

if it'll fit!


chris

I'm interested to hear about the fierce / smooth thing. I hadn't noticed that my carbed angine was "fierce" in any way, althoug I havn't been in an injected R1 car to compare.

How is the carbed engine fierce and the FI smooth?

quote:

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Originally posted by G.Man
my zx12r does the coast along bang without turning the ignition off.. lol

well it did until i closed the exhaust air inlet (Clean Air system)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by smart51
I'm interested to hear about the fierce / smooth thing. I hadn't noticed that my carbed angine was "fierce" in any way, althoug I havn't been in an injected R1 car to compare.

How is the carbed engine fierce and the FI smooth?

---

you worded it for me on that one

Well still not got an engine yet will do some more searching today and see what turns up.

Thanks for all the replies

As time goes by, with such good prices on 2003> engines, Im swaying more and more towards FI.

A big factor for me is the mounts. How much different are they? Can a carbed cradle be made to fit a 2003 engine?

Are the exhaust manifolds the same?

How many extra sensors and gubbins need to be fitted?
Ultimately it will come down to whats available where when I go shopping,

Thanks

Rich

My carbed R1 sump sticks out below the chassis of my car a small amount and the foam filter on the carbs just touches the bonnet. I'd check that a FI R1 will fit in a vortx before buying one. I'm sure they will somehow but check with Marc first. I'd have thought theat MNR would supply you the correct cradle for the engine that you buy.

Yep, only thing which Ill have to check is if my cradle has been made yet, its in progress as we speak.

Cheers

Rich

well Malcolm at yorkshire engines has source a suitable 5JJ model for the right price so should hopefully been getting it next week some time.

Good stuff mate, I still think the 5JJ is the best option for me, too many ifs and buts with an inj motor cos Ive gone down the carb route from the start.

Worth a think though if a cheap inj comes along

Rgds

Richie

Exhausts are certainly the same, my manifold was built up on a car with a carbed engine, yet mine is a 5PW injected engine. Also I assume Jim has kept his manifold when swapping from carb to injection?

As to the mounts, I think its only one mount on the head thats different, again Jim would be a good person to answer this as he would most probably have modded his current cradle for the new engine.

Chris

Yes, I kept the manifold but had to get one pipe modified to clear a chassis tube. I am now running with slightly unmatched primaries (how much if any difference this makes I am yet to find out).

Going from the carbed to the injected motor I tilted the motor over slightly by raising the gearbox 25mm.

As for mounts it depends on the cradle used. My install uses the rear (on the bike) mounts just above the gearbox together with the silver upper crankcase mounts. Some installs I have seen use the black mounts in the head which I believe are different on the FI motor.

As regards to the fierceness of the carb engine I think this is just coming out of the 5/6k flat spot which I never managed to tune out with the jet kit.

- Jim

My cradle was originally suplied to fit a carbed engine, and it's only the left hand mount that needed modifying

from
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Martin.

Thanks Martin,

Nice to know its not a huge job.

after looking at the various jigs we have today, the lower mounts are a different width and are 10mm higher on the injected over the carbed, and odf course the tops are different as mnentioned above, the 03 is a bit of a strange beast as everything is different and getting parts can be a problem due to only one year of manufacture,

best regards

marc

Cheers Marc,

Sounds as though the 03 is out for me then, too much of a faff.

Rgds

Rich

The 2002 and 2003 engines are the same so injection models can be sourced from two years of manufacture. There may have been slight variations in wiring but the engine itself will be identical.

So, in terms of getting spares it should be the same as the 4XV or 5JJ models, each produced for two years.

Personally having driven both in BECs the injection is a better setup to have, however I wouldn't switch from a carb to an injection model as an upgrade its not worth it. Its only worth considering if the engine goes bang. The injection is a bit more of a pain on the wiring side but thats about it.

Cheers

Paul

Yep, the 2002/2003 are to all extents and purposes identical.

Personally I would try to go injection if you can, not only for the stronger mid-range but for the ease of starting when cold and no worries about the carbs going out of tune etc.

Also, a minor/side issue but if you want or need a quiet can and airbox for trackdays but like hearing the engine in its full glory at other times, you can (with a Power Commander) upload different fuel maps for different setups in a matter of minutes whereas with carbs you can't really do that as you'd need to change carb jets etc.

Chris

[Edited on 27/2/06 by ChrisGamlin]