Morning all,
Finally got to go out in my motor last night after getting it SVA'd and registered, fixing and uprating the clutch and waiting for the never
ending rain to stop. Problem is I still dont think its running right, it just doesnt feel as fast as it should. I've read on this site that you
can get to 60 in 1st gear but I hit what seems like the rev limiter at about 35 and have to change up. The same in every gear no sooner do I shift up
then it sounds like the rev limiter is kicking in and I have to change gear again - the car struggles to go over 80mph. Could this just be down to the
engine being badly tuned or something else like fuelling? Is there a safe mode rev limit on the R1 like there is on some cars when the engines cold or
the ecu senses a problem?
Any help and ideas will be much appreciated. Its a 98 R1 with a sausage air filter by the way.
Cheers
Paul
I'm no expert but the 1st thing that i thought was gear ratio at the diff. May help if you post what diff you have.
Sorry to hear you are still having problems Paul. Let me know if I can help.
I take it the new plugs didn't help?
If not diff ratio then slipping clutch???
Not sure what diff I have to be honest, MK supplied it to me so I assumed it was suitable but if the ratios were wrong which lead to shorter gearing
(ie changing up sooner) would that not make acceleration faster? I'll try and find out what diff it is.
Hi Andy,
Long time no see - it does feel better after changing the plugs and even more so after uprating the clutch but its still nowhere near right from what
I can tell. Problem is I've been so busy the last 2 months I've been nowhere near the car and this was only my second drive out in it. First
time the clutch went, then last night the clutch cable snapped! PS havent forgotten your wheels will drop them round when I get 10 minutes spare!
Phil - I originally thought it could be this but have put in ebc clutch plates and doubled up on the diaghpram spring thats why I'm wondering if
it could be something electrical
[Edited on 25/5/06 by Paul G]
hi paul wind your mixture screws all the way in the ones that are at an angle above the air bleed allan keys
wind them all the way IN small flat head gently and tell me how many turns in they are first they should all be about the same
then wind them (well say first your car hasnt been dynojetted)
2 and a quarter turns out from memory
hi paul wind your mixture screws all the way in the ones that are at an angle above the air bleed allan keys
wind them all the way IN small flat head gently and tell me how many turns in they are first they should all be about the same
then wind them (well say first your car hasnt been dynojetted)
2 and a quarter turns out from memory
if its a carb engine theres only really the few things electrical
the worst things are usually starring you in the face and a simple fix
it should do more than 35 easily whatever diff
how olds the petrol mate
that wouldnt hold it back loads but believe me it helps
especially if fuellings not right
My R1 car reaches 52 MPH in first at 12000 RPM with a 3.62 diff and 195/50/15s
You have a foam filter. Have you had it dynojetted? The fuelling could be off at high revs. Try moving the circlips on the jet needles to see if
that improves things. I richened my standard needles right up and that improved my car a bit before I fitted the dyno jet kit.
Has it been dynojetted? and does it have trumpets on the carbs? Mine was doing this, my bro sorted it by blocking of the four little holes.
DOH! dam,... er.. poo.... I cant remember which holes they are.... OOOoooxxxxxx!!!
As far as I know its never been dynojetted but I dont know the history of the engine, is there any way of telling? - this is something I was hoping to
get my mate to do when he's back off his holiday. The suggestions that the fuelling is off at high revs sounds about right, it starts popping and
splutterin and backfiring. To be honest I wouldnt know where to look for circlips on the jet needles is there any more info anywhere about this?
Rich - there are no trumpets on the carbs just the metal holes going straight to the butterfly valves. If you could find out where these 4 holes I
need to block are I'd be grateful 
The petrol in there is fresh though its only cheap crap sumermarket stuff, as soon as I can get it to go far enough I'll be putting optimax in
it.
Thanks for all the suggestions gents - by the sounds of it hopefully its nothing too serious
[Edited on 25/5/06 by Paul G]
here you go... block these holes off.
stick cocktail sticks down them first and go down the road, before u do something permanant.
now for that u've gotta come to the meet at ternhill tonight at 8. or we could meet u at the Swan...?
Rescued attachment r1carbs.jpg
paul my U2U suggestion and richies suggestion are the first two Id try mate
Have you got enough travel on the throttle pedal?
irrespective of the amount of travel, how rich its running etc if its hitting the rev limiter the engine can not spin any faster.
At 35mph i'd say something was wrong. Are you sure the clutch is not slipping, that the clutch cable was fully releasing?
Ive already asked him about the clutch slip hes pretty certain as its new its ok
and youd feel clutch slip its pretty noticeable
Cheersfor the picture rich I'll give that a go - do these need blocking off then cos we're not using the airbox? Fraid I wont be going
anywhere in it for a bit though till I get a new clutch cable made up!
Throttle pedal travel is another possible thing I need to check didnt think of that one!
Mike I'm not sure wether it is the actual rev limiter kicking in it just feels like it, the engine is stuttering and backfiring at the same
point. At that point its so noisy its hard to tell whats going on when your not used to these becs in the first place
[Edited on 25/5/06 by Paul G]
The question is it revving out properly. ie. is it hitting the limiter or just feeling like it is hitting a limiter. If the former and revs are
increasing but not speed it will be clutch if the latter it sounds more like fueling. With no dynojet kit it is probably running very lean and when
it hits 4-5k it "fluffs" out (a feeling not disimilar to a limiter).
- Jim
Jim - When the speed increase stops so do the revs so I dont think its clutch slip. Another problem I've got though is my rev counter is a digital bar chart type thing and I have no idea how accurate it is! I'm judging it all on the final in gear speed and the fact that the revs dont sound as high as I'd expect along with the stuttering and hesitation
Your engine is running too lean...
The revlimiter does not spit and backfire, I am assuming you have got a race can on it, and now its not got the backpressure to run the
"emissions friendly" stock setup..
You are likely running out of rpms about 6-8,000 ish
Get it dynojetted and then let us know how it is
I tried blocking the air jet holes. It made it run VERY badly. I unblocked the holes and it ran well again. The holes are the air jets under the carb trumpet holders that don't unscrew.
Fuelling sounds like the problem then. Dynojet kit should sort that. 144 or 150 mains, Clip 3 or 4.
- Jim
quote:
Originally posted by Paul G
Jim - When the speed increase stops so do the revs so I dont think its clutch slip. Another problem I've got though is my rev counter is a digital bar chart type thing and I have no idea how accurate it is! I'm judging it all on the final in gear speed and the fact that the revs dont sound as high as I'd expect along with the stuttering and hesitation
Running lean sounds about right to me.
Can you get a spare set of main jets and drill them out to 150?
Paul,
I strongly agree with the general consensus that you need to get the carbs Dyno-jetted. My ZX9R has a sausage filter and a free flowing Stuart Taylor
exhaust and when I took it to TTS for jetting it was leaning out completely at 7,000rpm and producing a max power of only 88BHP!!! The guys at TTS
were not surprised at this since the set-up breathes a lot easier and sucks more air through and hence there is not enough fuel going in.
When I left a few hours later I had 161BHP and it transformed the car from fairly quick to an unguided missile, I nearly crapped myself when I first
put my foot down. It was the best few hundred quid I’ve ever spent.
They were surprised at how much power I came out with though and seemed to think that my engine might have a had the head skimmed at some point as
they would usually expect more like 155BHP from a ZX9R with this set-up. That might help explain why my engine was so bad to start with?
Anyway, get it jetted, and my advice would be get it done by a professional. The guys at TTS are great and let you get as involved as you like.
Marc
Don't have any experience with the R1, but when I took the standard airboxes off my Zx10's they ran so lean as to be almost undriveable, so
I would agree with the general consensus too.
One REALLY IMPORTANT thing is that if you keep driving it like this it could hole pistons/burn valves - not good
Beat me to it. My blade did the same. It sounds like its not reaching high revs because its running lean. I had to rejet several sizes.
You will know when it runs well there will be big increase in performance. Rolling road job. Worth every penny
Thanks for the advice fellas - I didnt realise it was such a common requirement to have to get it dynojetted, I'll have a look at the mixture
screws first to see if this helps and if not try not to drive it till its dynojetted.
Does anyone know any links with more info about dynojetting? Is it something you can DIY or does it have to go somewhere like TTS?
Andy - re your suggestion, is it just a matter of swapping the jets over and drilling bigger holes in the new ones?
Cheers
Paul
ps anyone know anywhere closer to Staffordshire that could do it for me?
[Edited on 25/5/06 by Paul G]
The mixture screws only affect it at idle as far as I'm aware. Raising the needles would riched it up throughout the range but not sure if you
can do this.
Yes Paul, if we get some spare jets we can just drill them out and swap them over. Shouldn't take long. If the jets are cheap we could get a
couple of set and keep drilling them bigger until it won't go any better then back off one size.
Cheers Andy that sounds like a plan! Might give you a bell once I've got my clutch cable fitted
You can purchase the kit and have a go to get it in the general ball park. As per my suggestion of clip 3 and either 144 or 150 mains. But getting it
done professionally on a rolling road is a much better solution.
Make sure that you get the correct Dynojet kit (TTS-4364). The TTS kit is approx £100 and IMHO not very good VFM as it comprises of 3 sets of jets a
set of needles and some epoxy and some instructions in a plastic box. You can get the jets cheaper from somewhere like PDQ in Slough not sure about
the needles but as they are official dynojet supplier maybe (or TTS may sell you just these).
- Jim
[Edited on 25/5/06 by jimgiblett]
Paul, I've heard Weber jets will fit. It might be worth investigating as these are cheap/free and could be sourced quickly.
Can anyone please confirm how many turns out the R1 carb mixture screws need to be?
98-99 carb engine about two and a quarter
that is the basic setting for most bike engines but its a little lean around 4 turns out would be better but theres no rule as not all the screws will be set to the same amount,start at 2 and a half turns out then one at a time wind the screw out untill the revs pick up once youv done all 4 start again and fine tune them ,the revs will pick up quite abit so keep lowering the revs to around 1100
Thanks again for all the suggestions lads I'll have a tweak once the weather sorts itself out again! Chris (zxrlocost) kindly took me out for a blast in his motor last night and that was like a rocket - twice as fast as mine so at least I know there is a real problem there and its not in my head.
It's not an import engine is it? A mate of mine got a cheap second hand engine to drop into his gixxer 750 frame, took us ages to figure out why
it was so gutless.
Was from Japan I think and there was A throttle stop things on it to stop it opening all the way, totaly killed the power, was making about 80bhp when
it should have been about 150.
I got it from MK and they said it came from Holland, so I'm not sure if it'd have this restriction on it but I'll take a look
Cheers
Paul
The European R1 was restricted with inserts in the carbs... As shown on this build diary...
http://www.freewebs.com/mega-r1/april_part1.html
You'll have to click 'Skip this ad' at the top right of the freewebs page when it comes up to get to the proper page.
Again though, as everyone else is saying I would have thought it is majorly leaning out...
Chris.
Ay up - just had a look and the butterfly valves open up fully by 90 degrees when the throttle is fully down so that looks ok.
The mixture screws were set at 3.5 to 4 turns out so when I get chance I'll block the holes off that rich showed me and give it another try. If
I get no luck there I'll turn the mixture screws back to 2.5 turns and see how it runs then
cheers
Paul
Surely the mixture screws are just for idle and make no difference at all to the general running. That will be by larger main jets.
Yup you need larger main jets and different tapers on the metering needle..
But there is an airbleed that can be blocked i believe...
Well seems like the cocktail sticks work! Getting about 30% more power now goes up to 45 in first gear before hesitating and stuttering, obviously
still needs a bit more tweaking but at least I'm making some good progress with it, it feels a load better already! Next step is hopefully
getting the jetting sorted
Getting my mate to put some bigger jets in it and hes also going to reprofile the intakes a little since I dont have the trumpets - obviously this
wont be as good as getting it properly set up on a rolling road but this geezer knows his stuff and has been working on bikes and fitting dynojet kits
for a living for years so its got to make an improvement
Sorry to be blunt... but quit typing and have it tuned! No matter what you do to it you still need to get it tuned, so you're just wasting time. Make an appointment... now!
he wants to, I want to on mine but theres no where within a few hours suitable unless anyone can tell us
Stoke on Trent/west midlands about 1-2 hours from northampton so you could try TTS...
preciseley more like 2 hours
not exactly a good drive there either unless we doubled the time
IM still up for it though
Cool, What do I get for 1st prize then? Even though OX gave it me.
Just get a dynojet kit and that will get you close...
They have settings for no standard airfilter and race can... start with those and adjust til it drives right...
Its not a difficult home job to be honest
and its got to be better than driving it like it is now (for the engine)
Richi gets a gold star for the cocktail stick suggestion! I'll see how it behaves when I get the carbs back later this week, I know it will need tuning properly after that to be at its best but its like Chris says - it would be nice if we could find somewhere that is less than a 4 hour round trip. I've been out 3 times in my car now, for less than an hour at a time - and its broke down 3 times! At the moment I would prefer to stay close to home till the gremlins are banished...
The mid range is the critical one, but as you say, if your guy knows his stuff he will know to richen it in the mid range... Top end then becomes
important as you will be generating more heat with an efficient mid range...
As long as you check the plugs after a blast and they are tan-sooty then you are safe.. if they are spotlessly clean and look a bit shiny,
beware...
Just to chip in with this one. My R1 was running lean and was consequently missing at the top end (7k+). I had the filter off today and thought what
the hell Ill try the cocktail sticks and see what it does.......completely tranformed it. The difference is staggering. It will still benefit from a
jet kit but at the moment the thing is flying how it should.
If youre on stock jetting and have the same problem - give it a whirl. Is this hole left unblocked when fitting a Dynojet kit?
Top suggestion, thank you
Rich
[Edited on 5/7/06 by RichieC]
no. keep it blocked even when dynojeted.
Cool - ta. Am I right in thinking the one which dynojet say should be blocked with epoxy is another one down the throats?
Honestly cant believe there was such a difference from those holes.
Cheers
Rich
it sounds like youv allready blocked off the one they surgest with your cocktail sticks,it could allready been dynojetted
I thought the one they do is down under the butterflies somewhere. Mine definately hasnt been dynojetted as it had the brass caps over the mixture
screws as set in the factory and the needles have only one notch on them. Also, the numbers on the needles are right out of the manual.
Interesting though that just this should make such a vast difference
Rich
[Edited on 5/7/06 by RichieC]
was your engine an import
Not as such but it did come with a US loom and the same with the carbs as they had the brass blanking caps to prevent tampering of the mixture screws
for emmissions regs.
Rescued attachment plugcloseup.jpg