Im new to kit cars always been interested and bought magazines gone to shows etc, but never taken the plunge!
Iv done a lot of engine conversions in road cars, and after 10 years of road cars the time was right!

I still took a short cut and bought a ready built Spire GTR . .

Now I once built a bike engined powered suzuki cappuccino, admitidly I didnt work through all the problems, but after the few times i did drive it i just felt it wasnt for me

So out with the zx12R engine and in with some sort of car engine and id like your oppinions and experiences please!

heres the lineup of shortlisted engines:

(did i mention i like toyota?)

4AGEU 20v blacktop 4 throttle 165bhp 120kg corolla levin trueno

2zzGE 1.8 VVTLI 190bhp 115kg (all alloy) celica 190

1UZFE Lexus V8 all alloy 175kg 260 bhp

Most proabbly all mounted to an audi transaxle

Now do you think the V8 is just too heavy and torquey and would ruin the feel of the car on track? any experiences here?

Why would someone choose a 1.6 engine over a 1.8?

Should one not get too caught up in power/ weight / weight distrabition etc and just concentrate on building your own fantasy?

This is a trackday toy for me, Im an engineer by trade and love crunching the numbers, but thats not all that makes a great car, my greatest creations have been those which capture the imagination and relise your visions (even if they are insane!)

Any input would be apreciated, especially from those who have changed from CEC to BEC or vise versa, and those who run large heavy engine like the V8
and heres a pic:

the engine bay:

why not consider the audi / vw 1.8 turbo as fitted to the TT, VW Golf GTI, Passat should fit the audi transaxle. The TT made 225 bhp the engine will make circa 300bhp without much spend bigger turbo, intercooler etc. My 1.8 was doing around 195 BHP only real weaknes was the waterpump replacements are better items other known problems are coil packs again new items are better than the originals.

ive no direct input, but i would speak to spire to see what they say, some time ago when i was looking at them they had round the shows a renault 21 turbo/gearbox one dont know how it differed or really how easy to retro fit,
another option is to sell what you have complete and then look for a CEC

Audi Turbo lump on an Audi Transaxle! Not the lightest combo, but loads of power, relatively cheap and super-simple!

quote:

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Originally posted by scootz
Audi Turbo lump on an Audi Transaxle! Not the lightest combo, but loads of power, relatively cheap and super-simple!

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How about a mazda rotary or the mazda v6 mated to a transaxle?

Regards the audi lump, a couple of people are using it although it would require serious re-working of the chassis. I think there's some machining challenges with the engine to make it usable, but don't quote me on that (just remember talking to one spire builder who had been waiting for one part to be made for months to allow him to fit a 1.8T)

Regards a V8 option, you know you want to !!!

http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=holeshot-hartley-v8

If you get the 1.8T engine from the passat (or a4)..... It comes already bolted to a transaxle....

Ok, so its not as pokey as the 1.8T from the Leon Cupra R or S3.... but im sure a clever chap could deal with that issue...

My Leon Cupra R had 290hp and was a standard engine with some clever remapping

4AGEU 20v blacktop 4 throttle 165bhp 120kg corolla levin trueno

2zzGE 1.8 VVTLI 190bhp 115kg (all alloy) celica 190

1UZFE Lexus V8 all alloy 175kg 260 bhp

Most proabbly all mounted to an audi transaxle

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You'll never get all that in there , just choose one ......................(tumble weed passes by)

Welcome

I have a bike engine in mine too

I think I'd opt for a high revving 4 pot like civic type R! Not sure how easy it is but I know of several lotus elise using these motors. They are a great engine, but I am biased towards Honda lumps. Keep us updated with your progress!
Tend to agree with other posts though as buying a bec, and doing a conversion will be very expensive compared to selling your bec and buying a cec.

how mutch does the civic type r engine and box weigh?

I have a 4age 20v blacktop which is alot of fun. Its stock so only 150bhp.

Once i get more money and am happy with the car setup i will have a hard think about superchargers.
Nice progressive power and a good power to weight. i think an eaton M45 from mini coopers works and are cheap.

Im sorry to all the audi men out there, I just cant do it! it would be super simple, but I have no interest in audi things, actually only a negative interest . . apart from their V8s which also bolt to that transaxle . .

Iv made gearbox adaptor plates befor and have a lot of knowledge about the lexus V8, my road car has a 400bhp supercharged one in it and i really like it, when mated to a manual box they rev very fast and hard! and sound sexual!

Hondas spin the wrong way but very nice engines . .although chech the specs on the 2zzge . .also very sexy for a 4 pot

I think the 4 pots do take some cutting and a bashing to fit under the clamshell, and i know the audi instalations have been very tight in the spire!

Tris . . I called you for your car but was too late! and i think iv already undone some of your good work on this one!

im glad this thread has already found two other spire owner/builders! . . what do you think? V8 will it suit the chassis? iv never actually drive a spire yet

heres a pic of my current V8 . . .i think it would look and sit quite nice in there!


B22LE . . I would think hard befor fitting a charger to your 20v, Iv built cars with the 4agze variant and 20v variant and they are very very different to each other you might lose a lot of the sparkle in your engine down that route, just make sure u try and test drive one befor you do it so your sure

Im generally not really after turbo charging this car, I dont want the extra sytems onboard ( intercooler, turbo oil feed etc)

I did consider the starlet turbo engine, its makes a very high specific power output relativly easilly and is the usual toyota bullet proof,

I was also interested in the aygo /107/ 3cyl 1l lump, that is the lightest production engine about at 67kg, turbocharging that would be nice with a nice thrum!

If i win on the premium bonds at the end of the month il be calling holeshot racing for sure!, and then quaife for a sequential transaxle

[Edited on 29/11/11 by H7ERO]

Hondas don't spin the wrong way.well not all Of them. The s2000 which I have spins correct way but am sure the type R, spins the wrong way but can be used as a mid engined using gearbox etc. Many lotus elise use this setup

yes the s2k lump would be my only option , the spire wont accomodate a transverse mid engine set up as would have been used in lotus atoms etc, which makes use of the honda FWD gearbox,

I could turn my transaxle upside down . . .but asside from all that I like toyotas too much to use a honda engine

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Originally posted by H7ERO

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How about a Duratec bolted to the transaxle

quote:

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Originally posted by ceebmoj
How about a mazda rotary or the mazda v6 mated to a transaxle?

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Now guys guys and girls. . . . . Your missing the point here I just want to know what you think about the dynamic effects of fitting a heavier engine or if anyone has a heavy engine in their lightish car and how they feel about it.

I would never ever use a mazda v6 over a lexus v8 and id die befor i even let a ford engine in the same garage
I dont need engine ideas it can only be toyota. . . I had a vision. Last week

got to ask....

why are you taking the 12 out ?

You've probably alienated about half this forum by slagging off the ford, lol!
The duratec will almost certainly be lighter,just as reliable and has potential for big power, but that's your choice. If I was doing one, i'd consider it as it's going in The new mid engined caterham and they seem to know their stuff?

Well ford v toyota is not really much of a debate in my book lol and I could argue lotus went with the toyota lump and the ford lump increases caterhams profit margins! BUT i dont want to get off topic here!

ZX12 just had to come out. . .Iv got a superbike and im happy with that sort of engine in that, and lots of other reasons which iv seen endlessly debated befor on this and other forums, BEC is just not for me this time round.

Iv had my vision of a toyota v8 powered LMP pastische dream fantasy toy, and just want to see if any one has any experience of a similar contraption?

A 4.2 Audi, with a cam change and throttle bodies, and open tubular exhaust is an awesome lightweight engine. 600hp

Thye dynamic changes with the extra weight behind the driver, by switching from a bec to car engine, will be felt in cornering. If set up properly, the car will have marginally better grip, until it breaks away with little notice, and usually unrecoverable. The rear bec should be a little better in behaviour, due to less weight and better distribution.

Cheers,
Nev.

Sorry to threadjack but 600hp from cams and better breathing?! Which cams, where - show me quick - I neeeeed! Unless you're considering adding a hair dryer too?

Will be interesting to see how the spire behaves with a high weight / high power setup.

When martin first developed the car, it was with a car engine in mind (think the prototype had a audi 80 4 pot). When Paul took the project on, the car was developed more with bike engines, which driven by paul's involvement in RGB.

Saying that there's one spire which has been running for ages now with a R5 Turbo engine (the red bull car), which i believe has been fairly successful. There's also one with a diesel audi unit doing endurance racing somewhere in europe. No one has ever gone down the v8 route to my understanding.

ZX12 gave mine about 160bhp, which while enough initially, i did start to feel that i would of liked more as i got used to the car. Paul's ex-demo Malborough car has a supercharged ZX14 in it (easily over 240bhp) and felt much more alive, especially with two passengers. It was/is fairly fragile with overheating issues, so personally if i was going to do one again then it would have to be a supercharged modern 4-pot (honda maybe).

Might well also be easier to cut the whole rear of the car off and build a new rear frame around the engine of your choice.

Cheers
Tris

The 1UZ-FE can make about 400hp normally aspirated and I've read of a couple making 1000bhp+ with boost, therefore if you choose one of them you'll run out of $ or nerve before the engine runs out of more potential.

However, mating them to a transaxle can be a PITA and I had to get me own flywheel and adapter made.
If I were in the UK I'd look at the Audi V8 which will bolt straight up to an Audi transaxle, so I am lead to believe.

Check out:

http://www.v-eight.com/

http://www.lextreme.com/forums/

[Edited on 3/12/11 by Doug68]

quote:

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Originally posted by Neville Jones
A 4.2 Audi, with a cam change and throttle bodies, and open tubular exhaust is an awesome lightweight engine. 600hp

Thye dynamic changes with the extra weight behind the driver, by switching from a bec to car engine, will be felt in cornering. If set up properly, the car will have marginally better grip, until it breaks away with little notice, and usually unrecoverable. The rear bec should be a little better in behaviour, due to less weight and better distribution.

Cheers,
Nev.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tris
Regards the audi lump, a couple of people are using it although it would require serious re-working of the chassis. I think there's some machining challenges with the engine to make it usable, but don't quote me on that (just remember talking to one spire builder who had been waiting for one part to be made for months to allow him to fit a 1.8T)

Regards a V8 option, you know you want to !!!

http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=holeshot-hartley-v8

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We would always advise going for lighness on track. This on board video at Oulton Park shows how a standard Honda CBR 1000 performs in a Spire.

http://www.spireoc.co.uk/videos_69316.html

The Audi 1.8t or 2.0T is a common fitment in a Spire for use on the road and Duratec mated to the Audi Transaxle is good option but hasn't been done before.

Andy
Spire Owners Club

quote:

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Originally posted by Spireoc

The Audi 1.8t or 2.0T is a common fitment in a Spire for use on the road and Duratec mated to the Audi Transaxle is good option but hasn't been done before.

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what about a x/flow on a hewland !!!

thought id never say that , that would lead to several BDA engined comments which im having a hard time stopping myself from thinking about ......

BDA on a Hewland, though a Mk9 would be a bit on the weak side for a decent BDA. Fantastic combination and light. Sweetest sounding engine at high revs you could ever listen to. If only a BDA was the same price as a second hand Duratec...

Cheers,
Nev.

Not that it helps, but I was just today chatting with someone who found a running excellent condition BDA in a sleepy East Cape South African town, and bought it for the equivalent of about UKP 600 (six hundred).

and no, their are no more where that came from....

Cheers

Fred W B

quote:

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Duratec mated to Audi transaxle has been proven by these guys (but not in a Spire), worth a phone call if you go that route.
http://www.mambamotorsport.co.uk/components/transax.html

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