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IVA FAil again....
SJC - 24/6/11 at 03:08 PM

Hi

Had my retest today and unfortunately failed.

The examiner does not believe that the fuel filler hose is suitable for the job, even though it has suppliers paperwork from CBS the first time and extra paperwork from who supply CBS this time. It says 'most' types of fuel on the paperwork, therfore he does not know if it is suitable for unleaded..... the pipe is the CBS flex fuel filler hose. What are people using? I need something with a gates number so he can check back against his numbers to see if it is suitable for fuel filler.

Any suggesting on fuel filler solutions or pipe that has a gates number on it??

He also knocked back the stainless overbraid fuel pipe as he does not know if it low pressure or high pressure, the manufacturer don't mark the rubber pipe inside as it is a waste of money. I have spoken to the manufacturers and the will hopefully send me a safety data sheet.
I took a 'Fuel Hose Specification' Sheet with me that listed the info i though would be required. Even if i put low pressure pipe on it has a burst pressure of 50 Bar, which i would have though would meet the spec.......

And the self centring was not enough, really struggling with this one, i have maximum caster i can get, set the top mushroom to noon position, tyres were around 25psi, i can put more camber and extra toe in to see if that help?

Any suggestions???

Just really annoyed, it is a lot of money and hassle each time and i feel they are taking the micky in some ways.......

Cheers
Stuart

britishtrident - 24/6/11 at 03:21 PM

Strange as it may seem the mushroom orientation has no effect at all on caster.

However it can be used to give more KPI which is the major source of self-centring.

locostbuyer83 - 24/6/11 at 03:38 PM

Sounds like your tester is very picky. Mine said nothing about my fuel hoses and I've got that flexible 50mm pipe from CBS and fuel hose from CBS as well.

joemotion - 24/6/11 at 03:40 PM

tyres up to 40 sorted mine!

Mal - 24/6/11 at 03:41 PM

Try increasing the tyre pressure on the front to 35psi.

Davedew - 24/6/11 at 03:47 PM

Setting toe out will help with self centering, friend of mine did it on his Haynes Roadster to go through IVA.

Bumble - 24/6/11 at 04:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Davedew
Setting toe out will help with self centering, friend of mine did it on his Haynes Roadster to go through IVA.


^^^^^^^^^^As he said.....Toe Out and 40 psi in the front tyres worked for me.

AndyW - 24/6/11 at 04:10 PM

I would be asking CBS for the re-test fee. If they clearly state its IVA ok and it fails on the point that it does not meet the correct criteria, then they have mis sold it and cost you the test. Thats the question I would be asking them.

Or I would write to vosa and get them to clarify that this is deff a fail, as others with the exact same pipe pass. They surely cannot have this amount of inaccuracy in the test.

Im sure there must be a way of disputing the fact.

Macbeast - 24/6/11 at 04:21 PM

My CBS certificate says " this is to confirm that The CBS product shown below - Flexible fuel filler hose complies with European standards DN 13 - DN 305 and is sutable for fuel delivery of petrol and diesel "

That was good enough for Gillingham VOSA - and they did check.

Neville Jones - 24/6/11 at 04:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Strange as it may seem the mushroom orientation has no effect at all on caster.

However it can be used to give more KPI which is the major source of self-centring.


Oh Dear.

Mushroom orientation won't affect caster, no, but it will affect trail, which will affect self centering. If you put the ball joint all the way forward, you may pick up a little trail.( Not something I'd recommend, but that's just me.) If that doesn't work, you'll need to either put on wishbones with more caster built in, or put upper wishbone mounts on further back, or longer top mounts which will allow the wishbone to move back.

KPI will have no affect on centering. Has other affects though.

Cheers,
Nev.

SJC - 24/6/11 at 04:53 PM

I had both certificates with me today but he instantly said they were not suitable, funny how one tester at that station has passed it before...Not sure which one.......

Caterham don't have an marking on their filler pipe, spoke to sales dept today....So even if i fit one of them it still wont pass.

The only stuff i can find with Gates number is £50 plus vat a meter.

Not sure what to do.

Self centering i will keep adjust and testing till i get more.

Cheers

matt_gsxr - 24/6/11 at 06:02 PM

I think Caterham is type approved so the rules are different. I thought you could use type approved parts and they would automatically be covered. The problem would be demonstrating that it is a type approved part as most are not marked with anything interesting.

Before you pay for the next test fee it might be worth calling them up to confirm that you have information that is good enough for them. Sounds like they are being a bit harsh but it is one of those cases in life where its probably easier to put up with the stupid rules than to start arguing.

FWIW I have some filler hose from CBS that was approved. It passed the test. The hose failed within 24months (big cracks).


Good luck

Matt

Promai Joe - 24/6/11 at 06:07 PM

Sorry I cannot help, but this is the kind of thing which makes this process a joke, the inconsistancy. My tester never even looked! He did look at other items equally stupid.

I feel your pain. Good Luck I hope your fuel filler pipe problem is resolved cheaply

zeds27 - 24/6/11 at 06:11 PM

What IVA station was it?

ashg - 24/6/11 at 06:28 PM

1deg tow out and 30psi will sort it.

rusty nuts - 24/6/11 at 06:36 PM

My Luego locost (same chassis as the Velocity , was always marginal on self centering even after being on the road for a few years. The biggest single improvement was a self aligning bearing on the steering column for about a tenner. If you look at the angled bracket where the standard Sierra column bush fits it isn't at right angles to the column and causes some binding .

BenB - 24/6/11 at 06:49 PM

My self-centering is pretty non existant. My examiner said "you probably want to sort that out at some point" before passing me. Personally I've never found the need

britishtrident - 24/6/11 at 06:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Strange as it may seem the mushroom orientation has no effect at all on caster.

However it can be used to give more KPI which is the major source of self-centring.


Oh Dear.

Mushroom orientation won't affect caster, no, but it will affect trail, which will affect self centering. If you put the ball joint all the way forward, you may pick up a little trail.( Not something I'd recommend, but that's just me.) If that doesn't work, you'll need to either put on wishbones with more caster built in, or put upper wishbone mounts on further back, or longer top mounts which will allow the wishbone to move back.

KPI will have no affect on centering. Has other affects though.

Cheers,
Nev.


Your ignorance of steering geometry is priceless.

SJC - 25/6/11 at 08:00 AM

quote:
Originally posted by zeds27
What IVA station was it?


Gillingham test station, obviously different people have to jump through different hoops to get to the same result !!!!

Ben_Copeland - 25/6/11 at 08:12 AM

Agh Gillingham are a nightmare, they were when I did my sva, they sound even worse now.

scootz - 25/6/11 at 09:18 AM

Flippin eck!

I've been to 3 SVA / IVA's now and never ONCE has the tester queried anything like this! Never even looked at the fuel cap / hose!

russbost - 25/6/11 at 09:31 AM

Speak to VOSA 01792 454351 or 454256.

Ask them for clarification re the fuel pipe, if they say it's ok (which I'm pretty sure they will) then ask them to speak to the tester at Gilligham (which I'll bet is a big bloke called Andy). They can't overrule the tester, but if they say it's ok & advise him as such, then you could reasonably ask for an appeals form to challenge the test decision, it is only by challenging stuff which is obviously wrong that the test will ever move forward & be fairer.

I would also check the braided hose with VOSA, particularly if you can get paperwork to clarify

Re self centering, 40psi & loads of toe out (I do mean loads) might make the car horrible & indeed unsafe to actually drive on the road, but they don't test that!

SJC - 25/6/11 at 11:22 AM

Thanks for your replys.

I will give them a call on Monday, I now have examples of the different fuel pipe from the comany showing the low pressure and high pressure pipe and the obvious OD size. I have the spec sheet that has the materials, burst pressure temperature rating test standards etc. I can not see what else he needs. I just think he is being an arse...

Will also check what they have to say about the fuel filler pipe. I can send them a copy of the info i have.

Trouble is i dont want to cause to much hassel at this stage as they have me by the short and curlies as they have the power to issue me a certificate. I will however follow up after i pass.

This is the same guy that built a car himself when it only needed a MOT only, tested his own car as he was a MOT tester and failed it..........

Cheers

scootz - 25/6/11 at 11:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by SJC
This is the same guy that built a car himself when it needed a MOT only, tested his own car as he was a MOT tester, and failed it..........




Does he look like John Cleese, or any of the other Monty Python crew!?

Ben_Copeland - 25/6/11 at 01:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz




Does he look like John Cleese, or any of the other Monty Python crew!?


No unfortunately not, nor is he at all funny.

I was lucky enough not to have him as a tester, he was doing the car behind me... Although he still stuck his oar in and picked up on something rediculously pathetic. Which the other tester had to then add that to a fail sheet, even though he'd dismissed it previously

[Edited on 25/6/11 by Ben_Copeland]

Neville Jones - 25/6/11 at 06:39 PM

quote:


Your ignorance of steering geometry is priceless.


Only outdone by your very self. Think before you write!

Oh dear, dear, dear, he thinks he's an engineer, ......again!

Considering I do this design work for a good chunk of my living, yes it is priceless to you anyway, you could never afford me! I've said before, I cannot be considered underfed or underweight, so someone must think I'm worth paying.

Caster is the angle between the top and bottom ball joint and vertical, when viewed from the side. Right?

Some one tell me if this bit of basic car design has been rewritten in the last week, please?

Moving the 'mushroom' around, doesn't move the ball joint at all, so doesn't affect caster.


What moving the mushroom DOES do, is change where the axle sits relative to the line joining the top and bottom ball joints.

Changing KPI affects scrub, which affects kickback, and a couple of other bits which I mentioned. Certainly doesn't help self centering.

Changing caster affects the longitudinal kingpin offset, or contact patch trail, which directly affects the centering force acted on the contact patch, and the resulting moment about the kingpin line. Self centering force.

Now Mr.BT, tell me where what I've just put is wrong, and why.


Cheers,
Nev


[Edited on 25/6/11 by Neville Jones]

loggyboy - 26/6/11 at 02:34 PM

quote:
Moving the 'mushroom' around, doesn't move the ball joint at all, so doesn't affect caster.


Surely it does move the angle at which the upright sits, which in turn changes the route in which the upright moves when steering input is made.
It doesnt matter if you move the bottom or top joint of an axis.

Neville Jones - 27/6/11 at 10:05 AM

quote:


Moving the 'mushroom' around, doesn't move the ball joint relative to the lower ball joint at all, so doesn't affect caster.


What moving the mushroom DOES do, is change where the axle sits relative to the line joining the top and bottom ball joints.



Think of how a supermarket trolley wheel runs, behind the vertical line it rotates about. This is trail. If the axle is behind the line joining the upper and lower ball joints, then the car will have trail, which will help self centering. This isn't a highly recommended practice, but will work to help some of the problem.

Ultimately eventually, the fix is to give the car about 5~7 degrees of caster, by making the changes as put above in my post.

IVA stations have been made aware of the bodges used(toe out and tyre pressures), and will now be looking for them and failing cars on that basis.

Cheers,
Nev.