Sorry if this has been done to death (and excuse me for originally posting this same question on MK Indy section - I thought I was adding to my original thread - oops [insert embarrassed smilie here]).

Been thinking about engine choices for my unbuilt MK Indy (non-R) and mulling over my options and trying to work out a sensible cost-benefit analysis.

I think I am going to pass on the BEC for now - much as I fancy the idea - as it is just too much effort and cost for a pre-IVA build if I am honest with myself.

So that leaves me with Pinto vs Zetec (I have a type 9 box already).

I reckon I can probably flog the Pinto I got with my unstarted kit and get enough cash to buy a Zetec - so they sort of 'even out' in terms of initial outlay, but then it gets a little more involved - especially as I have an IVA to consider.

Therefore, if anyone has some experience, I'd like to hear it.

Zetec route:

What do I need to make sure I get with an engine - often see 'bare' engines for sale, but what sensors/manifolds/brackets/wiring/etc are required?

Is it best to use bike ITB's - or is std injection worth a punt for starters - and do I use std ECU etc or go mega/micro squirt?

Is it worth a shot at getting a pre 95 engine and using the bike carbs I have (which are £800 Mikuni RS38 flatslides) - and what do you do for ignition?

Pinto route:

Main question, is it worth it when newer engines are easier to upgrade and add more perceived value to the car?

If so, as above regards injection/carburation (Pinto is a 2.0 EFi model with 205 block btw).

Hope you lot don't mind the questions, but it is all new to me is this stuff!

Stick the pinto in, get it through iva, enjoy the car, then go bec down the line.

The pinto can be good but it is expensive to make it go well.

The zetec is good 'out of the box'

You have to really want to have a pinto to go down that route IMHO

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Originally posted by BangedupTiger
Stick the pinto in, get it through iva, enjoy the car, then go bec down the line.

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Originally posted by mookaloid
The zetec is good 'out of the box'

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You have to really want to have a pinto to go down that route IMHO

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I have an MK with 2.0 Zetec on ITB's running Megasquirt and passed IVA with this set up in 2011. It's a 98 block so had to pass the latest emissions tests which it did without issue. Plenty of power.

In brief, to go down this route you will need to re-space ITB's or have a manifold made to suit (look up FastDan on here). You will need M/Squirt or similar ECU, Wideband Lambda and CAT. If choosing the 2.0 engine you will ideally fit a 1.8 flywheel (lighter) and water pump and preferably the oil pump / filter housing from the 1.8 as well as it gives more clearance around the steering shaft.

BigWasa on here is the fountain of knowledge on all things Zetec and has perfected setup with stock ECU, TB etc and has written up a "How To" so worth a search.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Matt

If it were me, I'd use the pinto for Iva. The emissions will be much easier to pass. Get the Iva out of the way save up and swap out for a duratec (rather than zetec as the exhaust exits same side to save on bodywork mods)

You can get a pre aug 95 zetec that will not require a cat but are becoming rarer to find.

Once the car is registered with the pinto your emissions limits will be set, so when you swap to a zetec or duratec then you still won't need a cat for Mot.

The problem with fitting a Pinto is to put it simply you will fail the SVA if the engine is knackered and belching smoke. Finding a good Pinto today when the last was fitted over 20 years ago is difficult. Rebuilding any engine is expensive.

Same applies to Zetecs of course. A pre 95 Zetec is 19 years old now and a good one is not going to be easy to locate. That is why the very good 1994 Zetec 2 litre under my bench is staying there for a little while longer.

just chuck the zetec in it. if its running correctly it should pass even the stricter emissions very easily it is a modern engine after all.

I had a Pinto powered striker back in the day and i really enjoyed it. They are comaratively heavy and need a lot of money and petrol throwing at them to get going really quickly.

The injection is absolute rubbish and the inlet plenum is as tall as your average 3 bed semi, and generally needs a cut out in the top of the bonnet.

Twin 45's is the "recommended" route but will set back the best part of £800 new. Second hand will probably need re-jetting which also equals cost and time.

You could probably drop on a 32/36 DGV with a throttle linkage and manifold for under £100, and again with an air filter, you will probably be cutting a hole in the top of the bonnet. This carb is actually very good, and on a standard engine, the performance would be close to that of twin DCOE's.

The Pinto sump, unmodified is very low!! Modifying it will set you back about £100, unless you are a good welder and know how to do it, and you can then get problems with oil pick up, or the lack of it, if is not correctly baffled or the pick up pipe is too short. the modified one are very flat bottomed with no natural well for the oil to fall into on return. I don't know about the sump clearance fitted into an Indy, but I would measure very carefully.

You will need different engine mounts for most engines that you fit, and a fair bit of the engine loom and coolant pipe work will be different.

Fuel supply and return ia not fitted with a carb set up and a different pump will be needed to convert later, with the relevant extra pipework

So the initial costs with your Pinto also exist, and would need to be factored into any later conversion.

My personal preference would be to fit the engine you think you want, and plan to stick with that installation. Initial cost saving will generally become a false economy when you factor in all the other things you have to change.

The pinto is great. Simple to install and work on. Saves the cost of an ECU. Weighs lots. Is different. Won't win any races (unless you modify it). Be less fuel efficient due to the lack of EFI and will cost more than you think to swap it later.

Unless you like the challenge and cost of converting later, do it right first time, even if the extra initial cost delays the build.

+1 for the Zetec.

I'm almost at the end of my "Pinto to Zetec swap" which has pretty easy. I've also taken the time to completely rebuild the car but that's another story. I've gone for stock standard zetec ECU.

Main reason for the upgrade:

1. Car will be more desirable if I ever decide to sell
2. I have loads of scope for more power.
3. Pinto + bike carbs would do about 9 mpg (or at least it felt like it... every trip to the shops was £20! ) Zetec should return about 40 mpg (ish)

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Originally posted by kingster996

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Originally posted by mookaloid

You have to really want to have a pinto to go down that route IMHO

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...or already have one sat in the garage I guess!

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Originally posted by Barkalarr
Zetec should return about 40 mpg (ish)

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Have to agree with the above and don't think the Pinto makes sense now.

Although I once started off with a Pinto, I swapped mid build and IVAd with a pre 95 zetec on bike carbs with megajolt. It was cheap and runs very well.

I don't think it costs much more than a basic Pinto set up but gives you a lot more for your money.

If I started now I'd probably go with injection as I think it may be less of a faff to get set up properly nowadays.

David.

P.S. Not sure what mpg is does normally but do know it did about 14 mpg on track at the weekend which I though was pretty good.

[Edited on 25/3/14 by DavidW]

[Edited on 25/3/14 by DavidW]

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Originally posted by Paul Turner

Don't delude yourself.

Blacktop on throttle bodies, mapped and running perfectly has done 31 mpg for the 5 years its been in, logged every gallon.

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I think there is two sides to the coin, firstly what you want now and want you want later.

I went the Pinto route as I used a single donor. This meant I could go for an age related plate and as my car was 87 it means I'm pre cat on 2.5%co - the good thing is this means that whatever engine I drop in, in future I will be on those emmissions with no need for a CAT. Mine is only an 1800 pinto but as I've never owned anything this focused and rear wheel drive I find it a good but still quick introduction to this type of car without being petrified everytime I touch the throttle. I do have a plan to go Duratec in the future. I am running ZX6r carbs and a megajolt - never been on a rolling road and setup by myself and I get 25-30mpg when pushing and upto 35mpg when cruising.

On the flip side, there is no doubting that the Zetec is a better engine, but then you need to consider emmissions and CATs for IVA. You may alsow want to consider what reg you are going for - Q or age related?

Depends on how you view your car - mine is a long term project, phase 1 build and IVA, phase 2 enjoy, phase 3 upgrade, repeat ....

[Edited on 25/3/14 by davidimurray]

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Originally posted by loggyboy
I think the key there is the TBs, they are designed for performance not economy. Stick a zetec on standard management in 7 and I would expect easy 40s at a sensible speed, possibly more.

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there is no doubting that the Zetec is a better engine, but then you need to consider emmissions and CATs for IVA. You may also want to consider what reg you are going for - Q or age related?

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I think its all about how quick you want it to be in the long run have you had a go in lots of differnt 7s i built mine with a pinto 100 some bhp loved it could kick its arse all day have long runs out in it got passed a lot on trackday couldnt keep up on sprints so decided another 150 horses requierd and went down duratec route can play with anything now but maby not as nicer car for a ride out you have to watch it a lot more.
If you want to go touring and long trips etc the zetec will be fine if you want to trackday race or just play with your mate stick the pinto to get iva then go duratec.
PS most of my cost of the duratec change was up grading to dta fuel injection new tank new fuel lines if i could go back i would have future proofed my original build
Anyway i would enjoy my car with any engine
Good luck Ali

Thanks Ali - only had a go in a Caterham (sigma engined) so far - loved it.

My aim is for a mix of Sunday blasts (with or without mates), sunny runs with the missus and the odd track day. Long trips not really planned, but wouldn't be out of the question as I have a few mates who said "you must do Stelvio Pass with us when it's built!" - so you never know - although no intention of fitting any wet gear.

The older Pinto will get easier emissions target at IVA after that any engine you fit will easily pass MOT
Zetec needs management and you need to pay twice as much for cam upgrade
I can get 130bhp out of a Pinto with ease, 150 with a little more work
Zetec will give 130 to 145 then costs mount
If it were me I would look at Pinto now and Duratec later, exhaust is on the same side

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Originally posted by kingster996

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Originally posted by BangedupTiger
Stick the pinto in, get it through iva, enjoy the car, then go bec down the line.

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That option is definitely on the cards - only downside (to me) is the time and effort required to get Pinto in and sorted only to rip it out later. But I suppose 'tinkering' is all part of the fun

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ALthough I'd rather have a newer motor, there are a few things it seems the Pinto has going for it - in may case anyway - so please feel free to shoot holes in the following:

• I already have the engine, which is from a car that did 65k miles.
  
• I already have a suitable exhaust system for it - albeit a bit untidy, it would probably do the job for IVA
  
• I already have a bonnet with a hole cut out for a Weber 32/36 carb - no carb tho as car was efi
  
• Assuming it is smoke-free - then IVA should be easier to pass and then good for future MOT's
  

If you know anyone with a decent bore scope I would be checking out the bores in the Pinto before committing to using it,if its been sat anywhere moisture could have got inside it could need a re-build.

Whats the score with pre '95 Zetecs passing without a cat out of interest?
I thought it was late '92 that the full cat emissions test came in to effect?

Afaik pre aug 95 no cat. Post aug 95 cat.

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Originally posted by kingster996
Thanks Ali - only had a go in a Caterham (sigma engined) so far - loved it.

My aim is for a mix of Sunday blasts (with or without mates), sunny runs with the missus and the odd track day. Long trips not really planned, but wouldn't be out of the question as I have a few mates who said "you must do Stelvio Pass with us when it's built!" - so you never know - although no intention of fitting any wet gear.

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Originally posted by kingster996
Afaik pre aug 95 no cat. Post aug 95 cat.

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if your planning to do euro trips consider this. what's the chances of finding zetec related parts half way up a mountain? and what's the chance of finding a crappy 100 year old pinto bit? my experience of european motoring is that motorfactors are useless and in most places near non existent. in an emergancy situation dealers being the no1 option only carry most parts for current models and a couple previous not 1980's sierras (excluding the uk who seem to carry parts for centuries)

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It's horses for courses.

My Indy came with a pinto which i then replaced- with a faster, rebuilt pinto; 205 block, injection head with 1mm skim + thinner head gasket, Fr32 cam, vernier pulley, .5 overbore & new pistons etc.

It was quicker than a standard one but cost a few quid to do and if I was building from scratch I would have just used an MX5 engine and box. Being it a shorter engine it doesn't need a cut down sump and the injection/ ignition/ ecu setup from the donor can be used avoiding the need for carbs, manifolds, aftermarket engine management, rolling road session etc. The 1.8 is 130 bhp out of the box and the door is always open for tuning mods including turbo charging at a later stage if required.

MX5 would be a consideration, but as it would probably not fit easily without chassis mods (gearbox width) and I have a type 9 box already, it isn't on the shortlist for now. Unless anyone knows better

- mind I do have a welder now hehe...

[Edited on 25/3/14 by kingster996]

Kingster

Can I jump on your thread and ask if you're the same kingster from the Yahoo UK VTR list. Only curious after seeing your avatar. I'm a lurker there too.

On the engine front, I went through a similar delima and ended up using my donor CVH engine purely for IVA emissions. I most likely will upgrade to a zest ex at some point, if I ever finish my build that is!!

J

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Originally posted by jimmyd
Kingster

Can I jump on your thread and ask if you're the same kingster from the Yahoo UK VTR list. Only curious after seeing your avatar.

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Originally posted by jimmyd
I went through a similar delima and ended up using my donor CVH engine purely for IVA emissions.

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Hi from what you said sounds like a nice st 170 zetec would do your job could run standard ecu for cost etc and still have chance to upgrade itbs etc for bit more power later anyway got a couple of pinto engine mounts you can have if you go other way.
Cheers Ali

Also dont worry about q reg makes mots really easy later on unless private no is most important thing on your list of performance upgrades.

Just to bu77er you up have carb and manifold for few beer tokens for the pinto

Hi Ali

Pinto bits seem to keep coming way - must be some sort of "message" - I'll have a ponder

Chris

Pinto

zetec cooling

Had the same dilemma myself with my pinto engined Fury. A zetec conversion c.£1000 or a Duratec = zetec x 3. In the end I've spend a few hundred and stuck with the pinto and installed a Newman PH4 cam.

The engine makes a fabulous noise now, and the car really flies when compared to the stock engine. The pinto may be heavy and dated, but it's a simple and bullet proof old lump, and parts are very cheap.

Depends on what you've got to spend and how fast you really want/need to go.

Steve

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Originally posted by ali f27
Also dont worry about q reg makes mots really easy later on unless private no is most important thing on your list of performance upgrades.

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The st170 could be a possible.

Assuming I get one with loom, injection, ecu, keys etc. does it need anything else to allow out to run correctly? Had a quick skim over big_wasa's thread but wasn't that with a separate ecu and loom etc?

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Originally posted by loggyboy
I think the key there is the TBs, they are designed for performance not economy. Stick a zetec on standard management in 7 and I would expect easy 40s at a sensible speed, possibly more.

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Im gettin 30 31 on a 1.8 silvertop on bike carbs and mega jolt

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Originally posted by kingster996
ALthough I'd rather have a newer motor, there are a few things it seems the Pinto has going for it - in may case anyway - so please feel free to shoot holes in the following:

• I already have the engine, which is from a car that did 65k miles.
  
• I already have a suitable exhaust system for it - albeit a bit untidy, it would probably do the job for IVA
  
• I already have a bonnet with a hole cut out for a Weber 32/36 carb - no carb tho as car was efi
  
• Assuming it is smoke-free - then IVA should be easier to pass and then good for future MOT's
  

I believe the engine will be OK, based on the fact that the previous owner bought a running Sierra and went to the trouble to strip it all down for his kit (before he lost interest). However, I have not had it running, so could end up with a lemon that needs work/swapping anyway!

Decisions, decisions!

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also as long as you don't need a CAT for emissions then bike carbs are an option for both the zetec and pinto - much cheaper than webbers or aftermarket EFI

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Originally posted by kingster996

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also as long as you don't need a CAT for emissions then bike carbs are an option for both the zetec and pinto - much cheaper than webbers or aftermarket EFI

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..and I do have a set of rather nice Mikuni RS38 Flatslides in the garage

I'll make my mind up when I sort out the engine mounts I guess!

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If I end up going to the effort/expense of custom manifold/magajolt/dizzy etc - I think it will be for a newer engine than the pinto tbh.

But the information is very welcome - just the sort of useful nuggets I am 'compiling'

I get 30-35 MPG on a 2.0 silvertop with Megajolt on bike carbs if I take it easy. Personally I think the modern multivalve engines are built to far better tolerances than something like an old Pinto so makes more sense to fit a 2.0 blacktop to me.

Not sure about the emissions issue, because I have a 30 year old Fiesta it's not a problem however there has been talk for a while now of EU legislation changing emission rules from the age of the car to the age of the engine, again with a 94 silvertop I should be OK but with a newer blacktop it might be different.

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Originally posted by kingster996
The st170 could be a possible.

Assuming I get one with loom, injection, ecu, keys etc. does it need anything else to allow out to run correctly? Had a quick skim over big_wasa's thread but wasn't that with a separate ecu and loom etc?

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I might end up going OEM ECU route for IVA - will have a good read of your threads big_wasa...

But when I asked if it was 'separate' I meant that it was an 'unmatched' set up - ie you didn't get then all from the same car.

I wondered if it was a problem if some ECU's need to be 'paired' with other components?

[Edited on 28/3/14 by kingster996]

I am thinking of doing another for the st170 whilst I remember whats what.

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Originally posted by big_wasa
I am thinking of doing another for the st170 whilst I remember whats what.

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