phoenix70
|
| posted on 24/9/08 at 12:21 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
They should have been kicked out of F1 for copying Ferrari's car anyway. Cheating gits.
OH yeah team hellfire? And what car is that then?
1 The one that won't go round corners on a street circuit (monte what's is face is already complaining about the night race street
circuit.)
2 The one that won't stay on the track when it's wet or greasy (5 spins for Massa at silverstone)
3 The one that has trouble finishing the race
or
4 the one that is magnetically attracted to solid walls. (various from the last few races).
Lets face it McLaren are still going to win a title it's just a case of how many.
I'm with you there!! The two cars are so far apart only an idiot would think McLaren have copied the Ferrari this year!! The two cars are so far
removed in their true strengths that McClaren would have so little to gain by copying!! They clearly didnt copy the engine - the McLaren doesnt break
down every 5 mins!! They clearly didnt copy the chassis - the McLaren handles in the wet, and in the dry is so much harder on its tyres - their
strengths are in different areas which simply proves it!! If McLaren had set out to build a car as far removed from Ferrari as they could, well they
would end up with what they have now!! I'm surprise at you team Hellfire - never thought you'd be daft enough to try that one!!
I think hellfire was refering to the fact that they should have been banned this year for being in possesion of the specs for LAST years car, you
know the one that one both the Drivers and Contructors championships.
|
|
|
|
|
Paul TigerB6
|
| posted on 24/9/08 at 12:34 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by phoenix70
I think hellfire was refering to the fact that they should have been banned this year for being in possesion of the specs for LAST years car, you
know the one that one both the Drivers and Contructors championships.
Well for starters. the McLaren design for 2008 was so heavily scrutinised right through the design / construction stage to make damned sure it didnt
contain any elements of the Ferrari 2007 design - you know, the one that won both the drivers (by Lewis gifting it through dumb mistakes) and
constructors (that the FIA gifted by chucking out McLaren) championships, and the one that i'm sure Ferrari must have used as the basis for the
08 design, that you could pretty much ensure the McLaren this year wouldnt emulate the Ferrari car.
So they (mCLaren) should have been punished doubly then - is that what you're saying?? So a $100million fine and stripped of the constructors
championship points for the 2007 year wasnt enough?? Who here thinks throwing out McLaren this year would have lead to the self destruction of Formula
1?? Was it not a Ferrari employee (Stepney) who stole the info in the first place or does that not count then?? As far as I know, only one employee of
McLaren (Coughlan) ever saw that info so does that justify destroying any sort of competiton in F1??? I was headhunted for a job with Shell / Ferrari
F1 and how glad am i now i turned it down!! The whole sport stinks of corruption, bias and result fixing.
[Edited on 24/9/08 by Paul TigerB6]
|
|
|
phoenix70
|
| posted on 24/9/08 at 04:38 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
Well for starters. the McLaren design for 2008 was so heavily scrutinised right through the design / construction stage to make damned sure it didnt
contain any elements of the Ferrari 2007 design - you know, the one that won both the drivers (by Lewis gifting it through dumb mistakes) and
constructors (that the FIA gifted by chucking out McLaren) championships, and the one that i'm sure Ferrari must have used as the basis for the
08 design, that you could pretty much ensure the McLaren this year wouldnt emulate the Ferrari car.
So they (mCLaren) should have been punished doubly then - is that what you're saying?? So a $100million fine and stripped of the constructors
championship points for the 2007 year wasnt enough?? Who here thinks throwing out McLaren this year would have lead to the self destruction of Formula
1?? Was it not a Ferrari employee (Stepney) who stole the info in the first place or does that not count then?? As far as I know, only one employee of
McLaren (Coughlan) ever saw that info so does that justify destroying any sort of competiton in F1??? I was headhunted for a job with Shell / Ferrari
F1 and how glad am i now i turned it down!! The whole sport stinks of corruption, bias and result fixing.
[Edited on 24/9/08 by Paul TigerB6]
The reason the new car was heavily scrutinised was to allow them to be entered into this year competition, if they hadn't, they may well of been
kicked out (BTW I agree that wouldn't of been good for F1)
Oh and the reason for the harsh punishment was due to the fact, at the first hearing where they were found guilty but not punished at all, they LIED.
At the second hearing it was proven that a number of McLaren staff had seen or knew about the Ferrari documents including at least two of their
drivers and it wasn't just 'One rogue member of staff'
[Edited on 24/9/08 by phoenix70]
|
|
|
andyps
|
| posted on 25/9/08 at 07:01 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by phoenix70
The reason the new car was heavily scrutinised was to allow them to be entered into this year competition, if they hadn't, they may well of been
kicked out (BTW I agree that wouldn't of been good for F1)
Oh and the reason for the harsh punishment was due to the fact, at the first hearing where they were found guilty but not punished at all, they LIED.
At the second hearing it was proven that a number of McLaren staff had seen or knew about the Ferrari documents including at least two of their
drivers and it wasn't just 'One rogue member of staff'
[Edited on 24/9/08 by phoenix70]
And if you read the transcripts of the hearing (I can send you a copy if you would like) you will see that there was no lie in the first hearing - the
people asked genuinely did not know that others had seen it, and those that had all told Coughlan to get rid of the documents and they didn't
want to see them. The only exceptions to this seemed to be Alonso and De La Rosa who discussed whether they should try using C0* in the tyres (sorry,
we aren't supposed to know what the gas was) as they believed Ferrari were doing, and what the red cars weight distribution was - something they
would almost certainly already have a good idea of because they watch whenever cranes lift cars, and would make no difference to McLaren who had
alreaady established their set up for 2007. As soon as Ron Dennis found out that he had not been given all the information he should have been for the
hearing he telephoned Max Mosley to give the facts, which was largely what the second hearing was based on. At the first hearing the truth was told by
those telling it. If you read the full transcript of the second hearing you will see that there was absolutely no evidence that McLaren cheated or
copied any part of the Ferrari design - the findings of the hearing were that there was no evidence, just suspicion. Suspicion would never hold up in
a real court, as opposed to the FIA Kangaroo court.
And why, through all of this and since have the FIA never bothered to ask Stepney about the information that went the other way? He has said it
happened - in other words, Ferrari got confidential information from McLaren. but of course, Max Mosley, that well known non Nazi president of the
FIA, wouldn't want to know that a team which has very strong links to the fascist Italian governments of the past had done anything wrong,
especially something which might undermine the credibility of the team which amongst other things pay for his official FIA office in Monaco. It would
be absurd for him to investigate anything which could lead to him having to confess that Ferrari might do anything wrong.
There is one team which has repeatedly cheated in F1, either through team or driver actions, yet rarely seem to get punished for it, and if they do
the punishment is inconsequential ($10000 dollar fine to a driver who wears a $120000 wrist watch for example). Now which team is that????
And as another point, why do McLaren have to pay the costs of Ferrari sending a lawyer to cross examine Lewis Hamilton about an incident to which
Ferrari were a witness. The FIA were the judges, Ferrari had no need to be there other than as witnesses and interested parties. Witnesses as their
telemetry would display that Lewis did not gain an advantage as he was slower than Kimi at vital points between the Bus Stop and La Source, and
interested parties as their driver was gifted a race which nobody could say he had any right to win. But where were the other interested party, BMW?
If Ferrari had a right to be there, so did BMW, but either they weren't invited, or have more respect for the sport than to get involved in
politics.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 25/9/08 at 08:45 PM |
|
|
I'm shocked that any British person would support Ferrari when we have the best team in F1. Perhaps the FIA are also engaging in some kind of
brainwashing?
|
|
|
andyps
|
| posted on 25/9/08 at 09:25 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I'm shocked that any British person would support Ferrari when we have the best team in F1. Perhaps the FIA are also engaging in some kind of
brainwashing?
It isn't so much supporting Ferrari I have a problem with. It is the fact that the Ferrari supporters in general seem to not realise or accept
that their favourite team is favoured by the sports regulator.
Even a couple of their ex-employees (Niki Lauda and Eddie Irvine) now see it, so why the blinkers from others?
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
|
|
|
RK
|
| posted on 25/9/08 at 10:23 PM |
|
|
Why does Bernie always get ignored in these conversations? Everyone knows it is he, and nobody else, who controls F1, and obviously he is given a lot
of money by various sponsors. He's probably just given a little more by the Ferrari ones to "put things right" every now and again.
The irony is that everyone talks about trying to make everything level again post-MS, and it's the opposite of what we have seen.
|
|
|
andyps
|
| posted on 26/9/08 at 01:00 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by RK
Why does Bernie always get ignored in these conversations? Everyone knows it is he, and nobody else, who controls F1, and obviously he is given a lot
of money by various sponsors. He's probably just given a little more by the Ferrari ones to "put things right" every now and again.
The irony is that everyone talks about trying to make everything level again post-MS, and it's the opposite of what we have seen.
Up to last year I would have agreed with you, but there have been changes in teh relationship between the billionaire dwarf commercial rights holder
and the non nazi president of the regulatory dictatorship. Whilst they used to work together to line each others pockets, there seems to have been
moves by the Max Mosley to excert complete power over everything he possibly can. I don't know why that would be, maybe it was a thought he had
whilst sitting naked drinking a cup of tea with a group of whores, thinking how he had just had them doing what he wanted, and maybe he could get the
same in other areas of his life.
Whatever the reason, Bernie does not seem to have the same level of control as previously. Witness the comments made by Bernie in terms of the current
and previous world champions not being good champions for the sport, but the non nazi regulator trying everything possible to ensure that a person
with skin that could not be described as fair coloured does not become champion, even though Bernie has implied he would be good at the
"job".
|
|
|
