ChrisW
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 07:45 PM |
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Anyone know about HV electricity supplies??
My second non-locost-or-car related question tonight, sorry! Hoping that someone from the diverse mix of people we have on here will have some
relevant expertise!
Here's the background:
I'm working on a project that requires a large power supply to be installed into an industrial building. We're talking of the order of
5MVA at 11kV. We'll pick the property based on the ability to install this power, so it's important that we have a guage of the
complexity of doing this for the sites we look at.
So we got the list down to two sites and tried to engage with SSE about getting power in.
The first one they claim they'll have to dig 3.5km and lay new cable in to get the power to the site. I've no idea how much that will
cost, but I suspect it's got 6 (or 7!) zeros on the end. We tried to get a price, but they just seem to be being difficult and asking for us to
tell them what they should install rather than giving us any hint of what is possible.
So we then picked a property that was right next to an 11kV substation thinking the cable run would be close. It was... 150m in fact, but the quote
came back today at £550k which is half the budget of the whole project.
I must be doing something or asking for something wrong, or not giving them the right information... surely they can't be this difficult with
everyone? It must be possible to have these supplies put in as there are plenty of similar developments like this going on. I know of one in Hemel
Hempstead for instance that had a similar length of dig and I'd suspect their entire build budget was £500k, so there's no way
they'd have spent that kind of sum just getting the power connected.
Anyway, what I'm asking is if there is anyone that deals with these kind of connections as part of their job or has experience in this kind of
thing? If so, would you be prepared to give me a 101 on this kind of work and answer some silly questions, preferably over the phone? (Or if
you're local, over a pint!).
Cheers, Chris
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StevieB
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 08:29 PM |
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I deal with a lot of HV stuff on the railways (25kv - the real mans HV  )
There's a couple of companies worth contacting that specialise in this kind of thing.
One is ABB, based in Stone (near Stoke) - they have a projects division that do installations for HV amongst other things.
Another is Matrix Power, part of the the Volker Group. They do a lot of this kind of the thing in Teesside, but have also done a lot on the railway
and are quite active on the Docklands Light Railway at the moment.
I can get contact details to you for both companies if you want.
If you need the design side of things sorting out, I can probably get you someone for that too.
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will121
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 08:34 PM |
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not specifically involved with design, but we do carry out maintance and operation of 11kv switchgear for MoD bases, 5Mva is quite a supply and you
are in the hands of the supply network company, from previous sites where it was upgraded to 4.5 to 7Mva the network company justified upgrading the
overhead lines for approx 5miles for which the MoD paid. seemed generally even if you think they should have the capacity available they will use new
connections as justification to upgrade their network at your expence, generally saves them doing network upgrades at their expence at a later date.
what sort sites you looking at? is development of an existing brown field factory site an option which may already have the capacity available?
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owelly
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 08:40 PM |
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Try dropping Jaffa a u2u as he is a HV engineer for NEDL. I almost forgot
was a powerstation engineer with 24MW to play with but my 4160v at 60hz would be no good to you.....
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owelly
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 08:44 PM |
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Another thought.......
With the numbers your playing with, have you thought about leasing/buying your own gensets or locating your site within a powerstation complex?
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 09:00 PM |
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The electricity boards are extremely difficult to deal with. They will not give you a quote unless you tell them what you want.
They will not make any decisions or give advice.
You tell them how much you want and where - they will do a network analysis and give you a budget estimate. They will charge you at the end of the job
when they know the true cost.
Some companies charge you to do an analysis.
It is not uncommon to be right next to a substation and need off site reinforcement to get you power. I have a client with a primary sub station sat
on his land (33,000 volts) and he has to bring 4mVA 4.5 km to his site.
This primarily due to the regulator Off Gem not allowing the electricity companies to have too much spare capacity. Which in simple terms means their
spending is controlled.
I would say a large percentage of jobs we look at will need reinforcement of the network.
However the load you are asking for is greater than a standard 11kv network can carry which is 4.5mva so you will need two HV ring circuits are you
sure the 5mVA is correct? How did you get to this figure estimating loadings is a skilled job - I have made a career out of it.
A 1MVA substation without any reinforcement will cost you around £50k plus the building to put it in, we usually budget at £70k when being paid for
advice.
Power On is another private company but do remember they always have to go back to the local electricity company for a connection point on the Network
so you always end up in the same place, the privateers are usually a bit more helpful as the regulator allows them a little more flexibility. In my
experience price is usually pretty similar to the local electricity company though.
You will need to do and accurate loading estimate which will include identifying large motors etc, any harmonics and go through a whole load of red
tape before you get a sensible quote.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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JohnN
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 10:16 PM |
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I didn't realise that lights and hydroponics draw that much power 
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stevebubs
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| posted on 5/5/11 at 10:52 PM |
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Chris,
Drop me a mail (stephen~bubs.net) and I'll try and I'll introduce you to 1 or 2 people who have had similar problems in the past...not
sure if they'll respond, but it's worth a try...
Stephen
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carpmart
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| posted on 6/5/11 at 05:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnN
I didn't realise that lights and hydroponics draw that much power
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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richardlee237
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| posted on 6/5/11 at 07:16 AM |
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5MVA is a lot of power for one installation, for example a large quarry would run on it or a village.
If you want to rent 5MW it will cost you between 65,000and 100,000 pounds a month depending on contract duration and use 32,500 ltrs of diesel a day.
The price would include all service and maintenance
An 11kv 5 MW package of generators to buy would be in the order of 1m pounds plus installation and running.
If your interested please send me a U2U
richard
Quote Lord Kelvin
“Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in race horses and women.”
Quote Richard Lee
"and cars"
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ChrisW
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| posted on 6/5/11 at 02:39 PM |
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Thanks for your comments, guys.
Well I spoke to the chap this morning who has prepared the estimate for me.
He seems to think that £550k for a 5MVA connection is cheap... 
Seems the cost is apportioned between:
Cable installation - 150m of digging, 200m of cable
Switchgear for each end
Installation works at the substation
I asked whether there was any obvious way I could save money by changing my requirements slightly, he didn't think there was. For example, 11kV
is the only way they would provide that level of power, they will only install a ring out to our site, each side capable of supplying the 5MVA,
etc.
I'd have to drop the capacity to under 1MVA for the price to change, equally I'd have to increase over 7MVA to increase the price.
We have to provide a brick building 6x7m to install the switchgear in which is more expense on our side.
Really not sure what to do now. We picked the building because it was so close to a primary electricity site so the only way it would seem that the
project would be viable would be to chose a building with 11kV already installed. Yet I know of at least three other similar projects being built
very similar to ours with the same level of budget as we have that have managed to solve this problem so there must be a way forward somehow.
Steve - will email you now, cheers!
Chris
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Ivan
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| posted on 6/5/11 at 04:27 PM |
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Hi - firstly normally 11kV is viewed as medium voltage and not high, but anyway - a new 5 MVA transformer with switchgear will take up a large chunk
of the 550K quoted never mind the upgrade to the reticulation and switchgear upstream that might be required, so the quote doesn't sound too bad
to me.
Not sure about Britain but here, if you are astute enough, you can arrange for the £550k to be a deposit with the value of consumption in the first 2
years being refunded. i.e. you pay the deposit of £550k and if you use £250k worth of electricity in the first two years they refund that amount to
you from the deposit. (Anyway that is how it worked when I was dealing with this sort of thing 15 years ago)
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ChrisW
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| posted on 6/5/11 at 06:13 PM |
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Hi Ivan
I wouldn't mind if there was a transformer included! They're handing off at 11kV, so we have to provide everything downstream!
Chris
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Ivan
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| posted on 6/5/11 at 07:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
Hi Ivan
I wouldn't mind if there was a transformer included! They're handing off at 11kV, so we have to provide everything downstream!
Chris
Well that's just plain cheeky of them - now I see why you think that's expensive - unless they give you a good tariff of course.
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Guinness
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| posted on 9/5/11 at 10:38 AM |
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Chris
Is the project geographically tied to London?
£500k buys a lot of (first class) train / plane tickets to just about anywhere in the country!
It might be worth expanding your search to a property that has that sort of power in situ?
Is this
the sort of thing you are proposing?
It's in the former Siemens electronics factory.
Or there is the former Motorola mobile phone factory at Bathgate up in Scotland, which is now Pyramids Business Park.
I'd imagine they'd have both space and power available?
http://pyramidspark.com/office/offices.html
If you need a Project Manager / Designer / Builder
Mike
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mcerd1
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| posted on 9/5/11 at 11:24 AM |
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Don't envy you having to work with SSE - they can be real PITA to work for quote:
Originally posted by StevieB
There's a couple of companies worth contacting that specialise in this kind of thing.
One is ABB, based in Stone (near Stoke) - they have a projects division that do installations for HV amongst other things.
We work with most
of the contractors in this industry including:
ABB, Siemens T&D, Areva T&D, Mitsubishi Electric, Enterprise, Freedom…..etc
But most of them pass the actual cabling work onto the likes of: Carillon, Prysmian (formerly: Pirelli cables) or NKT (but NKT are a nightmare)
I'd ask Enterprise and Carillon first as they both do a lot of this kind of work, I'll try and find the right contact details for you
later
(I also know a few good independent engineers that would do this, but they are all really busy with these offshore windfarms at the moment )
I'm not involved with the electrical side of things myself, just the supports for it so if you need any steelwork made give us a shout
(the boss will consider any job, but we specialise in HV electrical supports)
"25kV - the real mans HV"  - we do 400kV at my work 
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