the moa 2
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 10:23 AM |
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How much harder is a R1 5PW to install over 4XV 5JJ
As title says im looking for engines and originally was gonna go for carb model R1's but now starting to think the injection model might be a
better buy for a couple of hundred more.
I would have to run another fuel line down the tunnell and would need to do something to the tank to fit the fuel pump and swirl pot.
What else would i need to do that is different to installing carb model engine apart from the extra wiring.
And is it worth it ?
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Dillinger1977
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 11:09 AM |
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i looked into FI vs carbs when i was sourcing an engine and in the end it was only the fact that there was a carb going cheap nearby that clinched
it.
the engine will cost a few hundred more, but you will also need a power commander which is another couple. (but you will save a little by not needing
a dynojet kit)
its also apparently trickier to install and set up for emissions. i can understand the installation thing but i'd have thought that total
control over the mapping would have meant it would be fairly easy to do an sva map and then change to a 'full fat' one after 
oh, and if you get a power commander you'd HAVE to get a laptop to plug in and play with it. for coolness at the very least 
-Rog
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the moa 2
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 11:18 AM |
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Hmm sounds cool only thing is i wouldnt have a clue what to do on the mapping side of things and would probably end up make it run like a bag of turd
! So would leave that bit for the pros
Already passed SVA so dont have to worry bout that although MOT's could be a problem.
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ChrisBradley04
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 12:08 PM |
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Hi guys,
Just to clarify you don't need to use a Power Commander (now you have passed SVA) as long as you use an airfilter of some sort.
I did some testing on Dave Walkers rolling road using a TTS sausage airfilter and a Fisher exhaust and the mapping was spot on without it. Dave
reckoned there is some adjustment in the stock system that corrects for the slight differences (MAP?).
Of course, there is more power to be had by tweaking so a Power Commander is a nice to have.
With regards to installation, there is no doubt there are a lot more sensors and wires with the injected engine. However, it's just more of the
same and if I could do it.......
Some of the engine mounts are different, and you will need a high pressure fuel system (high pressure hose, fuel lines with return, baffled tank/swirl
pot, injection filter).
My 2p (for what it's worth) having driven carbed and injected is that the injected is well worth the extra hassle. Low down torque is much
improved and mine pulled cleaner for 5mph than my A4 did!
Perhaps Jim G or Chris, who have used both for long periods of time, might give a better compare/contrast.
Only downside I can see is emmisions, as I took 3 SVA's to pass even with Power Commander and a cat. I passed but don't know how and it
was by a whisker!!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 12:53 PM |
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Jim would be the ideal one to ask as he's done both having recently replaced his carbed engine with an Injected one. One thing to bear in mind
is that the sump is lower on the injected engine so normal carbed engine mounts made to fit may still sit the engine too low (as Jim found out)
Ive never really got my hands dirty with a carbed engine so couldnt really comment, but although there were more sensors etc as mentioned, I didnt
find it significantly more taxing to install than the original carbed blade I put in.
Chris
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smart51
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 01:49 PM |
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A fuel injected engine will need two fuel lines to the tank, a send and a return.
Both carbed and FI engines will need to be tuned if a different exhaust and filter is used but neither need it if the stock airbox and pipes are used.
not much to choose there.
Power and torque for pre 2004 engines are very similar whether FI or carbed.
There isn't much to choose between them. Like Dillinger1977, I was thinking about FI until a cheap carbed engine came up for sale.
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RichieC
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 04:19 PM |
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For me the 5JJ is the one to have. It had a stronger clutch and a longer 1st gear than the 4XV.
Unless you go for the more powerful 2004 model, there isnt much between the carb and injection engines and the extra few hundred pounds (plus power
commander for me as mine would need SVAd), wouldnt be worth it. Plus, I was interested to hear about the different engine mounts, that would be a
player.
It has been said above but you might be lucky and the stock map may adapt enough to compensate or, it may be a dog without a power commander. I
cannot honestly see how a stock map could cope with such a radically different exhaust from the bike to the car and an open filter. Like Smart51
says, if its on the bike it stands more of a sporting chance. Im not arguing with anyone findings, might just have been a particularly good match.
Generally bike ECUs in stock form can manage a panel filter and end can. Anything more than that and they cannot compensate enough and will not
produce the goods. You may be lucky and it may just be a bit off, you may be unlucky and it maybe running badly lean. This was certainly the case
with my last two GSXRs, fine with an end can and filter but awful with anything else.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 04:30 PM |
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If you have the 2002/2003 clocks there is actually a way of crudely tuning the injected engine to partially compensate. I would have to dig it out as
its not a terribly well known feature, but you enter a certain mode on the dash which then allows you to tweak the richness of each cylinder
independently. I believe its a blanket setting for all RPM range so not exactly a perfect solution, but it may help weaken it off slightly for SVA or
richen it up to suit a free-er flowing induction / exhaust.
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RichieC
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 04:45 PM |
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Thats a pretty useful function, although a bit crude, might assist things along.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 05:33 PM |
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For future info, here's a thread that describes how to do it. Ive never tried it and whether its 100% factually accurate for European spec bike
I don't know, but possibly worth a try
R1-Forum.com
link
Chris
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jimgiblett
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 06:54 PM |
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I think everything has been said here already.
My experience was that the carbed engine is certainly very straightforward to install. The Injection needs a little bit more thought due in the main
to the additional wiring. The conversion from one motor to another was more of a pain than I expected due to the need to raise the engine 25mm. This
had the knock on effect on the exhaust not fitting and engine mount requiring modification. A high pressure FI pump was required and a return to the
tank.
The electrics are generally straight forward so long as the wiring diagram is followed carefully. I had one brain fade moment not connecting the feed
to the FI pump but other than that it was all okay.
The main reason I have decided to go for the FI engine was after a ride in a friends fury which although similar in straight line performance to my
old carbed motor it was a lot more tractible with no flat spots.
There is plenty of knowledge here and elsewhere that can help a builder with either the carb or the FI engine so its just a case of pays your money
and make your choice.
Cheers
Jim
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RichieC
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| posted on 4/2/06 at 09:08 PM |
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I think Jim has summed it up. Im still not 100% decided but I think its going to be a late carbed motor. It sounds better to make the choice early
on and not bu66er about changing from carbed to FI later on. Its enough of a job for only a hike in performance (ie up to a ZX12 or Busa) to warrant
it. For me this is probably the way Id go. I like tinkering with carbs having played with FI too, Ill probably opt for the carbed motor and then if
an upgrade is on the cards it will be to a larger capacity motor.
I dont think anyone would be offended by the performance of either model and its fair to say, having riden both carbs and FI, the FI is a smoother,
more refined option (you cant do the PB style kill the ignition, coast, ignition - bang though!!). It sounds as though FI comes at the premium of
additional cost and complexity of install.
Like Jim says, you pays yours money, you ...........
Rich
[Edited on 4/2/06 by RichieC]
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G.Man
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| posted on 5/2/06 at 10:47 AM |
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my zx12r does the coast along bang without turning the ignition off.. lol
well it did until i closed the exhaust air inlet (Clean Air system)
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 5/2/06 at 11:35 AM |
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I was all over the place about deciding
the injection engine is very smooth
the carbed engine is quite fierce hence why quite a lot of people were killed when the bike was first released
it was a good price at the time so I went carb
I think one of the first reviews was
"dont kid yourself and think you are in control of the bike because you are not!
I shall get mine running and get used to it for a month then when the nice weather comes I shall buy the R1 turbo kit from MC XPRESS..
if it'll fit!
chris
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smart51
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| posted on 5/2/06 at 04:47 PM |
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I'm interested to hear about the fierce / smooth thing. I hadn't noticed that my carbed angine was "fierce" in any way,
althoug I havn't been in an injected R1 car to compare.
How is the carbed engine fierce and the FI smooth?
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Hellfire
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| posted on 5/2/06 at 05:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
my zx12r does the coast along bang without turning the ignition off.. lol
well it did until i closed the exhaust air inlet (Clean Air system)
Ours used to pop and bang when you backed off the accelerator at high revs. It sounded great  Sadly, since having it tuned properly, it
no longer does it anymore and I kinda miss it. 
It's enhanced the performance though
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 5/2/06 at 05:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
I'm interested to hear about the fierce / smooth thing. I hadn't noticed that my carbed angine was "fierce" in any way,
althoug I havn't been in an injected R1 car to compare.
How is the carbed engine fierce and the FI smooth?
Its not something you'd probably notice nearly as much in the car because of the extra weight and the fact that its NEVER going to pull a
wheelie etc, but I imagine what it effectively means that the carbed engine doesnt produce huge amounts of mid range, but then quickly comes "on
cam" and delivers much more power at the top end once past a certain RPM, whereas the injected engine produces more mid range grunt so you dont
get that same step up in power as with the carbed engine, its more linear.
The net result is that the FI engine is probably a bit quicker, but the carbed engine probably feels a bit quicker.
Chris
[Edited on 5/2/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 5/2/06 at 07:45 PM |
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you worded it for me on that one
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the moa 2
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| posted on 6/2/06 at 09:16 AM |
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Well still not got an engine yet will do some more searching today and see what turns up.
Thanks for all the replies
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RichieC
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| posted on 25/2/06 at 03:27 PM |
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As time goes by, with such good prices on 2003> engines, Im swaying more and more towards FI.
A big factor for me is the mounts. How much different are they? Can a carbed cradle be made to fit a 2003 engine?
Are the exhaust manifolds the same?
How many extra sensors and gubbins need to be fitted?
Ultimately it will come down to whats available where when I go shopping,
Thanks
Rich
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smart51
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| posted on 25/2/06 at 04:14 PM |
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My carbed R1 sump sticks out below the chassis of my car a small amount and the foam filter on the carbs just touches the bonnet. I'd check
that a FI R1 will fit in a vortx before buying one. I'm sure they will somehow but check with Marc first. I'd have thought theat MNR
would supply you the correct cradle for the engine that you buy.
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RichieC
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| posted on 25/2/06 at 05:05 PM |
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Yep, only thing which Ill have to check is if my cradle has been made yet, its in progress as we speak.
Cheers
Rich
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the moa 2
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| posted on 25/2/06 at 08:53 PM |
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well Malcolm at yorkshire engines has source a suitable 5JJ model for the right price so should hopefully been getting it next week some time.
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RichieC
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| posted on 25/2/06 at 09:15 PM |
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Good stuff mate, I still think the 5JJ is the best option for me, too many ifs and buts with an inj motor cos Ive gone down the carb route from the
start.
Worth a think though if a cheap inj comes along
Rgds
Richie
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 25/2/06 at 10:35 PM |
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Exhausts are certainly the same, my manifold was built up on a car with a carbed engine, yet mine is a 5PW injected engine. Also I assume Jim has kept
his manifold when swapping from carb to injection?
As to the mounts, I think its only one mount on the head thats different, again Jim would be a good person to answer this as he would most probably
have modded his current cradle for the new engine.
Chris
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