chrisf
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 01:38 PM |
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T45
Hi All:
I'm doing some research for a next project, and I need some info on T45. I might be searching poorly, but I cannot find T45 suppliers or specs
in the US. What caught my eye was an article in Race Car Enginnering a year or so back about T45 being used by F1 to replace titanium in some
instances. I notice that some UK kit suppliers use it on roll cages. So:
1.) How does T45 compare to 4130 in terms of strength and weight?
2.) Does it weld like steel or does it need a vaccum chamber like Ti?
3.) Does it need to be stress-relieved like 4130?
4.) Does it cost more like 4130 or like Ti?
5.) Am I way off here? Is T45 a glorified mild steel?
Any help is appreciated.
--Thanks, Chris
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worX
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 01:53 PM |
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I am afraid I can't be any real help here, but friend of mine (builds historic race cars) told me that the only decent source of T45 (to us in
the UK) comes from just two suppliers in Germany.
I don't know how true this is, but he did comment that the other suppliers products weren't as good/clean as the two suppliers
mentioned.
If you want I will ask him who those suppliers are, as I do not remember!
But obviously getting from Germany to Texas may be a bit costly!
hth
Steve
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chrisf
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 02:15 PM |
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Hi:
Any info is great. The material will be for a trellis-style bike frame, so we're not talking about too much here. Shipping from Europe to the US
and a poor exchange rate is the norm...
--Chris
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iank
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 02:21 PM |
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MNR use T45 in their lightweight chassis, so will know the answers. But it certainly is completely different to CrMoly steel as from ->
http://www.safetydevices.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=49
From the safety devices page on materials:
T-45 (light weight)
Initially used only for aerospace applications, T45 has for a while now been used in the manufacture of roll cages by Safety Devices. The advantage of
T45 is that it has a tensile strength of approximately twice that of the standard Cold Drawn Seamless tube (CDS). Due to its high tensile strength we
can manufacture the roll cage using tubing of the same diameter but of a thinner gauge (wall thickness). As a guide this equates to a weight saving of
approximately 0.5 kg per metre of tubing or 10 - 15% of the total roll cage weight when compared to CDS. However this does come at a cost, as a roll
cage manufactured in T45 is substantially more expensive to purchase than the same in CDS and therefore only really required by competitors competing
at the higher end of the motor sport spectrum.
Cr (Chrome Molybdenum) Steel
Although popular with some roll cage manufacturers, we do not use Cr in any of our tubular products. This is because the properties of Cr Steel are
not considered a particularly suitable as achieving a constant quality is problematic and its ductility is far less effective in deformation than T45.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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worX
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 03:18 PM |
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I'll find out in the next couple of days and send you a U2U!
cheers,
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by chrisf
Hi:
Any info is great. The material will be for a trellis-style bike frame, so we're not talking about too much here. Shipping from Europe to the US
and a poor exchange rate is the norm...
--Chris
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chrisf
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 05:19 PM |
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Many thanks gents.
--Chris
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hughpinder
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 05:30 PM |
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T45
I was looking into the same thing - no prices yet but have found two (alleged) suppliers: Elmdon metals in Birmingham (0)121 7810999 and
www.tennant-metall.de/moto_en.htm
Hope this helps - let us know if you get any prices!
Hugh
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 2/7/07 at 06:25 PM |
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ugh, just deleted my own post by accident..
so, in short...
T45 is a english standard, that is why it is not available in the US,
when I was buying my 25CrMo4 tubing (very similar to 4130) from tennant metall this is what I was told:
25CrMo4 is widely used in high end cages by major manufacturers like porsche, BMW etc...
If one wants higher quality material, then 15CDV6 is the choice, at 6x the price, you can find it in WRC cages and other high end applications
(suspension components, etc)
specs..
yield tensile strength elongation
25CrMo4 520 n/mm2 650 N/mm2 12%
T45 620 N/mm2 700 N/mm2 10%
15CDV6 790 N/mm2 980 N/mm2 10%
[Edited on 2/7/07 by kikiturbo]
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JB
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| posted on 3/7/07 at 07:14 PM |
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T45
Elmdon Metals boast big stocks, though their website is currently down. They did email last week so I am unsure whats up.
I am always reluctent to use "high strength" alloy steels especially if welding because I am scared of them snapping. I much prefer to use
"lower spec" and for it to bend.
Unless of course you know the correct pre heat, weld, post weld heat treatment, stress relieve etc and are prepared to do regular inspection and crack
testing........ but I do worry alot.
Elmdon told me that T45 did not require a stress relieve post weld but......... I would do more research.
I would guess that T45 would be ideal for Nickel Bronze welding and it would certainly be my choice of joining.
T45 doesnt require welding in a chamber like Ti.
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 4/7/07 at 09:15 AM |
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as for welding,.... no steel requires vacuum chamber, but I would do a backpurge with argon....
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gttman
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 08:50 PM |
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I used T45 from Elmdon metals for quite a bit of my GTT Chasis.
Basically it's twice the strength of normal mild steel CDS so the Main benefit is that you can go thinner wall without reducing the strength....
especially useful for roll cage were strength and without extra weight is important.
As for welding, really you should re heat treat but I havn't as I had mine Tig welded..... for odvious reasons it is an absolute bastard to bend
(specialist only I'm afraid) and cut. But I used no special tools.
Biggest drawback is the cost.... its about 6 times the cost of mild steel.
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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nasty-bob
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| posted on 15/7/07 at 12:06 PM |
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This has kind of been mentioned but is worth clarifying I think.
The high UTS of T45 means that in areas that may see high impact (roll hoop) thinner wall can be used while maintaining safety factor.
The yeild remains similar to that of other steels and so in everyday loaded chassis members there is no benefit of using T45.
For one off loads, UTS is used for safety factor calculation. For everyday loads yieild strength is used.
Cheers
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tigris
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 01:23 PM |
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titanium
http://www.bikeschool.com/store/index.cgi?id=90828858733&c=Titanium_Tubing
A link to give a price reference for TI tubing.
You can weld TI with a sort of cup that spreads out the gas.
I would guess that the price of importing t45 would be approaching the cost of buying TI, and the cool factor wouldn't be nearly as much.
What type of frame/engine?
I'll post up some pics of my supermoto I'm building.
Thanks
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chrisf
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 01:39 PM |
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I'd love to see pics of what you're building!
My frame will be a Ducati-style trellis frame with a stressed engine. So we're not talking about a lot of material here. Still, at the prices of
the materials I'm considering, I might make a couple mild steel frames first.
--Thanks all, Chris
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tigris
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 02:41 PM |
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hah
I'm adapting a sv650 engine to a yz400 frame, very similar "style" of a ducati except with a backbone along the top to support the
current shock mount, seat and fabbed tank.
What dia. tubing are you using?
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chrisf
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 02:45 PM |
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Well, I'm still designing this in my head right now. My plan was to 1.) buy a book on bike chassis dynamics and 2.) measure up what Ducati did.
I'm going to research the YZ400 frame more.
Have you made much progress?
--Chris
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tigris
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 02:50 PM |
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what type of bike are you building?
I'm really just using the yz frame because the forks and swingarm would bolt on and be straight without any jig.
I'm over my first hurdle-fitment of sportbike wheels.
I wanted to use buell xb wheels. front went on with some light machining of the dropout and a bearing swap. The rear was a rsd belt, so I ended up
using the buell swingarm-flipped, swapped swingarm bearings, and I am fabbing a shock mount currently.
next up is fitting the hacking the frame, fitting the motor and adding side "trellis" support.
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tigris
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 02:52 PM |
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salvage 748 frame
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ducati-748-996-frame_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35614QQihZ016QQitemZ260139057466QQrdZ1
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chrisf
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 02:55 PM |
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Tigris:
Please e.mail me offline Thanks!
--Chris
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jamestziros
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 01:11 PM |
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Elmdon Metal now Winged Aviation
Hi,
I have used Elmdon Metals/Winged Aviation or a number of occasions for race car chassis & my kit roll cage. Very good they are helpful & know
what they are talking about.
All their T25 is certificated as they supply to aero industry.
0121 7810999 is the number in my phone.
Be carful with some suppliers as they call their tube T45 when in fact it is not...!?
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marc n
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| posted on 20/7/07 at 05:41 PM |
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we get all our cage and racecar wishbone material from elmdon, superb service
marc
please email rather than u2u
direct workshop email ( manned 8am till 6pm )
www.mnrltd.co.uk enquireys to :-
chrismnrltd@btinternet.com
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