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Why bike carbs
Ninehigh - 28/2/10 at 09:48 AM

I've heard of a few people using bike carbs on their car engine, but what does this actually do? I have to ask now because my tutor at college wants to know (after we did carbs and injectors last week).

From what I understand you'd be getting a mix of double fuel to air... although I've no idea how that's beneficial to anyone except BP.

(Btw if this should be somewhere else please move it thanks)


nitram38 - 28/2/10 at 09:53 AM

I think most people use bike fuel injection because of cost.
Jenvey bodies can cost a couple of thousand pounds.
You can buy bike throttle bodies/injectors for £100-200 and buy aftermarket controllers for a few hundred more


mookaloid - 28/2/10 at 09:56 AM

people use bike carbs as a cost effective alternative to upgrading to twin 45's or the like. there is also a school of thought that they actually perform better, giving smoother running, better idle etc than webers.


deezee - 28/2/10 at 09:57 AM

Because they are cheaper and flow more than car carburettors. Why would you be getting double air to fuel ratio? They are all balanced and tuned.


Ivan - 28/2/10 at 09:58 AM

Don't understand what you mean by "Mix of double fuel to air"

Most petrol engines run on air to fuel ratios of around 13:1 and all carbs are set up to provide something like that, never 6.5:1.


Ninehigh - 28/2/10 at 10:03 AM

Well the Llambda (sp?) ratio is 14.7:1, but seeing as cars with fuel injection already do this, and carbs are having their attempt at getting that fuel mixture before it gets as far as the injectors... I'm trying to understand how they actually work because a carb mixes fuel and air, but so do the injectors. If carbs are set up for this is what I'm thinking correct or do the carbs not let fuel in and are just used for the air control?


mookaloid - 28/2/10 at 10:06 AM

you either have carbs OR injectors not both.

If you are home brewing your fuel system, it is easier to use carbs because they require no electronics. on the other hand if you can build your own fuel injection system then you don't need carbs


zilspeed - 28/2/10 at 10:06 AM

Bike carbs are modular, as are bike throttle bodies if chosen correctly.

This makes it very simple to have a setup with one choke per cylinder, just like webers / dellortos.

The fact that they are modular means that spacing to suit the car engine is also very simple.

Regarding carbs, they are mostly variable venturi (sort of like an SU, but more like a Stromberg because of the diaphragm).
This makes them more tunable than a fixed venturi carb like a weber where you need access to lots of chokes to get it right.
With the variable venturi, it will pretty much open as much as it needs to and the tuning is all done with the jet and needle.

With the throttle bodies, as said previously, they're cheaper than Jenveys is the only advantage.


Steve G - 28/2/10 at 10:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh


From what I understand you'd be getting a mix of double fuel to air... although I've no idea how that's beneficial to anyone except BP.




Why would they be doing double fuel to air?? The engine would immediately flood if that was the case.

Just think of them as carbs of a different design (closer to old SU carbs than Webers / Dellorto) that just happen to have come off a bike.

At the end of the day all you want to do is inject a certain amount of fuel into the engine for any given engine speed and load to get the correct air / fuel ratio (AFR) which will be around 14.7:1 (air : fuel) plus or minus a couple or so depending on engine load. This wont change by much no matter how you get the fuel in there so a properly tuned set of bike carbs will be putting in very similar levels of fuel into the engine as Webers or Fuel Injection.


Editted to correct the stoichiometric ratio which is 14.7:1 dohhh

[Edited on 28/2/10 by Steve G]


Ninehigh - 28/2/10 at 10:09 AM

Ah so it's an alternative not an addition?


mookaloid - 28/2/10 at 10:10 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
Ah so it's an alternative not an addition?


You've got it


Toltec - 28/2/10 at 10:22 AM

The other thing that occurs to me is if someone has suggested using a set of bike carbs as throttle bodies. You make up a manifold with injectors and use the carbs without any fuel supply to control the air flow. I am not sure how well that would work with vacuum slide carbs though, I suppose you could fix the slides fully open and just use the butterflies. Would that save much money over just getting some bike throttle bodies?


MakeEverything - 28/2/10 at 10:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Toltec
The other thing that occurs to me is if someone has suggested using a set of bike carbs as throttle bodies. You make up a manifold with injectors and use the carbs without any fuel supply to control the air flow. I am not sure how well that would work with vacuum slide carbs though, I suppose you could fix the slides fully open and just use the butterflies. Would that save much money over just getting some bike throttle bodies?


I reckon its possible, but an expensive way of doing it?


DRC INDY 7 - 28/2/10 at 10:41 AM

yep its been done mate of mine with a indy zetec has bike carbs for the throttle bodies just fix the slide in the up postion


Ninehigh - 28/2/10 at 10:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Toltec
The other thing that occurs to me is if someone has suggested using a set of bike carbs as throttle bodies. You make up a manifold with injectors and use the carbs without any fuel supply to control the air flow. I am not sure how well that would work with vacuum slide carbs though, I suppose you could fix the slides fully open and just use the butterflies. Would that save much money over just getting some bike throttle bodies?


I'm sure that's what I was told last time I asked..

Thanks for all the replies guys, I've learned something today


woolly - 28/2/10 at 11:27 AM

choke size is a compromise on fixed choke carbs (weber etc.) small for low down control big for power. bike carbs have variable choke in an attempt to equal out the air speed over the jets and gives better low down control. yet a large choke size for power.
old stromgberg carbs were called CV carbs constant velocity. SU carbs same principle different approach.

HTH

woolly


BenB - 28/2/10 at 02:04 PM

Most people fit bike carbs because

1) they're cheap
2) they flow well
3) they're easy to adjust (shim the needles and job's a good'un [usually] )
4) they can be easily re-spaced

The reason they are quite good for converting into TBs is the above and that they don't have a fixed choke in them (unlike say Webers) so you don't get the same restriction. With EFi after all, you don't need a choke to create the pressure change needed to atomize the fuel.