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what makes a car suitable or not for veg oil?
blakep82 - 26/1/13 at 03:56 PM

I need to buy a car, and I want a diesel I can run on veg oil. Ideally I want it to be an 02 plate to try and aim for cheaper than 215 a year road tax, and verrry cheap(probably the most difficult part)

I want something along the lines of ford, vauxhall, or preferably audi if I can get one cheap enough. And an estate too. I need a car, want a van, this is somwhere in the middle.
How do I know if any of these are suitable? What do I need to be looking for, and can this be checked easily, as im planning on going to the auction tomorrow for a look

[Edited on 26/1/13 by blakep82]

rusty nuts - 26/1/13 at 04:20 PM

Forget about any common rail diesels for a start. If you can find a car with an older Bosche or Lucas pump that would be better.

hobbsy - 26/1/13 at 04:23 PM

2001 Y plate is where co2 based tax started. If your looking at straight veg rather than bio diesel choices are v limited in that age range.

Skoda Octavia with the older 110bhp non PD VW TDI engine is your best bet. All the VW and Audi had changed to th non veg friendly engines by then.

dlatch - 26/1/13 at 04:41 PM

all the old clonkers will run on veg fine the engine in my citroen zx td is the only redeeming feature

[Edited on 26/1/13 by dlatch]

GeoffT - 26/1/13 at 04:45 PM

There can be lots of issues running modern diesels on vegoil, basically pre 2000 indirect diesels running Bosch pumps are favourites, but that's a bit of an oversimplification.

I suggest you have a good read on the vegoil forum here, all the information you need is there.

Slimy38 - 26/1/13 at 05:11 PM

I should mention that there have been a few news articles about police forces keeping an eye out for 'veggies'. It's a bit difficult to hide the fact your car smells like a chippy! I don't know what the actual law that is being broken though, probably some tax evasion no doubt?

I only know about VAG diesels and their refusal to work with veg oil, that's already been answered by Hobbsy. My mate reckons his 04 Mondeo TDCi will be happy with veg oil?

PSpirine - 26/1/13 at 05:35 PM

As someone that's run cars on veg for a good few years, I'll chime in:

The only car I can think of that is post 2001 that can run on veg oil is a Skoda Octavia, either in 90hp or 110hp form. I believe they used the non-PD engine until 2003. VW and Audi switched over in 2001.
Easiest way to know for certain whether a VAG engine of late 90's is non-PD is that the oil filler cap will be on the same side as the cam belt, rather than the rear of the engine (as on PD engines). Only 90hp and 110hp versions were non-PD and suitable for veg oil.

Mondeo TDCi will not run on veg oil, neither will Peugeot HDI or Lucas TD engines, or any other DCi or common rail engine.

Older stuff such as 406 estates will run, but you need to make sure it's a Bosch pump and not a Lucas one. Older Mercs are happy with it too.


As for the law, you are allowed 2500 litres per year, duty free, for your own use. So unless you're using more than that, you do not need to pay anything (if you DO use more you need to pay duty on the whole lot by the way)


Personal recommendation would be for a late 90's VW Passat or Audi A4. Both are amazing cars, love veg oil, and are cheap and reliable, and come in estate form.

Pavs

bashracing - 26/1/13 at 06:09 PM

somethhing like this, it will probably have a lucas pump on though but swap one from an earlier bosch pump car and you're away!
Peugeot 306 1.9d 5door very low milage diesel | eBay

[Edited on 26/1/13 by bashracing]

jossey - 26/1/13 at 09:25 PM

My old BMW 525d worked ok with bio it was a 2006

Did about 150k on bio n veg oil

Not great when its winter but ok in sring to November.

Ninehigh - 26/1/13 at 09:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
My mate reckons his 04 Mondeo TDCi will be happy with veg oil?


He should try bio first, and then you can smirk when it keeps cutting out. Mine despised bio (but it appeared to be fine in about 15% bio to diesel)

Also: http://www.dieselveg.com/

[Edited on 26/1/13 by Ninehigh]

MikeRJ - 26/1/13 at 10:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
somethhing like this, it will probably have a lucas pump on though but swap one from an earlier bosch pump car and you're away!
Peugeot 306 1.9d 5door very low milage diesel | eBay

[Edited on 26/1/13 by bashracing]


If the model number in the title of that auction is correct (1.9d) then it's the non-turbo diesel engine. 70bhp and 0-60 in about 17 seconds.

bashracing - 27/1/13 at 12:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
somethhing like this, it will probably have a lucas pump on though but swap one from an earlier bosch pump car and you're away!
Peugeot 306 1.9d 5door very low milage diesel | eBay

[Edited on 26/1/13 by bashracing]


If the model number in the title of that auction is correct (1.9d) then it's the non-turbo diesel engine. 70bhp and 0-60 in about 17 seconds.

Cheap, fast, reliable! You can only have two of the three, if this car exists though that's 51 reg on runs on veg oil and does 60 in 7 seconds and is cheap to buy put my name down for one too

[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]

Ninehigh - 27/1/13 at 03:05 AM

Yeah the 306 non turbo diesel is quick as dry cement off a shovel. Tbh I didn't believe it had 70bhp...

blakep82 - 27/1/13 at 11:16 AM

Never knew it was so complicated...
Thanks for all the info, I didnt expect it would be that hard to find a suitable car these days.
And thank you for the link geoff, I'll have a good read through as much as I can take in there!

Something thats confusing me though now, saw an advert the other day for mcdonalds, says they run their lorries on the used cooking oils, but surely they're all common rail diesels? How can they do it?
Is there a difference between just putting old filtered oil in, and processing the stuff with all the methanol and sodium hydroxide you can buy? Will it run in newer cars by changing it to biodiesel/biofuel?

Going to the auction later just to see whats there

bashracing - 27/1/13 at 11:27 AM

it's alittle bit of twisting the truth, they actually mix 5% veg oil with regular diesel, and only because it gets them tax releif

tegwin - 27/1/13 at 11:37 AM

Just out of interest...those that do run veg oil.. what kind of MPG are you getting compared to running pure diesel?

[Edited on 27/1/13 by tegwin]

Ninehigh - 27/1/13 at 07:08 PM

My Peugeot hdi is running fine on bio (so far) and I appear to be dropping about 5mpg. However the place I get it from is 10ppl cheaper than the supremarket nearby so i guess that evens out (I'm in the process of finding out)

I suppose maccies are turning their oil into biodiesel or using the twin tank thing (as my link above)

PSpirine - 27/1/13 at 07:29 PM

Another misconception.

Veg oil is not the same as biodiesel.

When we talk about cars suitable for veg oil, I mean literally running on neat veg oil as you buy in tesco (or filtered and de-watered if you want to run it on used oil). Older cars with mechanical pumps (as described above) are what you want for veg oil due to viscosity.

Biodiesel is a different kettle of fish - it's processed using methanol and transesterification which turns the oil into a rather acidic diesel fuel. Well-made biodiesel will work in almost any diesel engine (inc. HDI, TDCi, Common rails etc.). Here the limiting factor is not the viscosity, but simply the fact that it will attack a lot of rubber seals, but this depends on the fuel system. McDonalds run their lorries on biodiesel, they do not blend veg oil into diesel.


My Passat on veg oil saw less than 10% reduction in mpg compared to diesel (about a 4-5mpg drop on a 55mpg average). I only use veg oil when I buy it for £1 per litre or less, otherwise not worth it. At those prices, my fuel running costs for the car including servicing are less than £0.10 per mile.

dinosaurjuice - 27/1/13 at 09:30 PM

no modern diesel can run on 'SVO' or straight veg oil.

the 2500 litres a year limit only applied to proper biodiesel last time i checked, so unless your processing the oil to meet EN14214 or better you should 'technically' be paying duty on it. This may have changed though.

just my opinion, but a 1.7dti astra estate will probably be cheaper to run on pump diesel in the long run than an older vehicle using veg oil. mate had one of these that would return 55MPG if driven steady. 2 people i know have succesfully run vehicles on veg oil, one had a 1989 mercedes '124' 2.5d, and the other a toyota 4runner, these both ran lovely on it, both had bosch fuel pumps but neither was efficient to begin with

Ninehigh - 27/1/13 at 09:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
Another misconception.

Veg oil is not the same as biodiesel.

When we talk about cars suitable for veg oil, I mean literally running on neat veg oil as you buy in tesco (or filtered and de-watered if you want to run it on used oil). Older cars with mechanical pumps (as described above) are what you want for veg oil due to viscosity.

Biodiesel is a different kettle of fish - it's processed using methanol and transesterification which turns the oil into a rather acidic diesel fuel. Well-made biodiesel will work in almost any diesel engine (inc. HDI, TDCi, Common rails etc.). Here the limiting factor is not the viscosity, but simply the fact that it will attack a lot of rubber seals, but this depends on the fuel system. McDonalds run their lorries on biodiesel, they do not blend veg oil into diesel.


My Passat on veg oil saw less than 10% reduction in mpg compared to diesel (about a 4-5mpg drop on a 55mpg average). I only use veg oil when I buy it for £1 per litre or less, otherwise not worth it. At those prices, my fuel running costs for the car including servicing are less than £0.10 per mile.


Hmm, I was under the impression that biodiesel was made from wvo or svo, and that it's not the same in the same way that crude oil is not the same as petrol

MikeRJ - 27/1/13 at 10:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
[If the model number in the title of that auction is correct (1.9d) then it's the non-turbo diesel engine. 70bhp and 0-60 in about 17 seconds.

Cheap, fast, reliable! You can only have two of the three, if this car exists though that's 51 reg on runs on veg oil and does 60 in 7 seconds and is cheap to buy put my name down for one too

[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]


The 306 1.9 Turbo Diesel is still a reliable engine and has greatly improved performance over the non-turbo, and fuel economy is pretty much the same. Unless you are some kind of masochist, there's little point in buying the old normally aspirated diesels.

morcus - 27/1/13 at 10:08 PM

I used to work at McDonalds, and I worked with a guy who made Biodiesel out of oil he got free from work before they started keeping it all. I'm sure he said with everything involved it cost about 90p a litre to make using the free oil and he used to run a fairly modern transit on it, but it deffinitly didn't smell of chips and took alot of refining and as said thats what they use in the trucks.

He still makes the diesel, the store just convieniently 'spills' a fair amount of waste oil. That will be ending soon though as the next plan is to have the oild pumped directly into a tank and then into a truck.

bashracing - 27/1/13 at 10:17 PM

[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]



The 306 1.9 Turbo Diesel is still a reliable engine and has greatly improved performance over the non-turbo, and fuel economy is pretty much the same. Unless you are some kind of masochist, there's little point in buying the old normally aspirated diesels.

looking at 51 reg onwards the last of the 1.9td was 1999

blakep82 - 28/1/13 at 12:25 AM

So, after reading through all the links, am I right in this:
Plain veg oil, ie SVO or WVO filtered, moisture removed and straight in the tank is only really suitable for older engines, and not newer common rail diesels

Converted bio can go in common rails, but the acids/alkali (cant remember which it is) can rot hoses and seal

Thats what ive got from vegetableoildiesel.co.uk

However, dieselveg.com says you can use veg oil in common rails, with no mention of converting it, except you need to reduce the vicosity and pump it into a warm engine, and this can be done with heat exchangers to warm the oil to around 70 degrees, and starting and stopping the engine on diesel with a 2 tank system.

Is that about right? Obviously still need to make sure the pump is up to it, diselveg have kits, and talk of 2005 vw vans running veg oil. Kits cost the same as about 5 or 6 tanks of diesel. Depending on where you can get veg oil from (chippy, kebab shop etc) and how they get rid of their old oil, which ive still to investigate, you could pay it back pretty quickly tbh...

Ninehigh - 28/1/13 at 05:11 AM

Yeah from what I understand the biggest problem with the veg oil is that it's thick when cold. The 2 tank system means the main tank gets heated up with the engine

MikeRJ - 28/1/13 at 08:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]


The 306 1.9 Turbo Diesel is still a reliable engine and has greatly improved performance over the non-turbo, and fuel economy is pretty much the same. Unless you are some kind of masochist, there's little point in buying the old normally aspirated diesels.

looking at 51 reg onwards the last of the 1.9td was 1999


In that case the listing is still wrong as it says it's a 90bhp version.

NigeEss - 28/1/13 at 09:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82

Something thats confusing me though now, saw an advert the other day for mcdonalds, says they run their lorries on the used cooking oils, but surely they're all common rail diesels? How can they do it?
Is there a difference between just putting old filtered oil in, and processing the stuff with all the methanol and sodium hydroxide you can buy? Will it run in newer cars by changing it to biodiesel/biofuel?



Used cooking oil is processed before using in that application.

Spend a fair few quid on preheating systems and special filtration and anything will run on bio. You'd have to be
doing huge mileages to offset the cost though. There is a company local to me that I deal with that converts trucks and
stand alone generators. The boss and his wife run brand new Mercs running on 100% bio, obviously converted at
the companies expense.

My 200Tdi 90 will run on pure cooking oil quite happily.

Not Anumber - 28/1/13 at 10:16 AM

The 300 Turbodiesels in the early round eyed Mercs run fine on pure veg oil. Performance wasn't that far off the later 320cdi engines (which wont run on veg oil).

GeoffT - 30/1/13 at 10:30 AM

quote:

So, after reading through all the links, am I right in this: Plain veg oil, ie SVO or WVO filtered, moisture removed and straight in the tank is only really suitable for older engines, and not newer common rail diesels Converted bio can go in common rails, but the acids/alkali (cant remember which it is) can rot hoses and seal Thats what ive got from vegetableoildiesel.co.uk However, dieselveg.com says you can use veg oil in common rails, with no mention of converting it, except you need to reduce the vicosity and pump it into a warm engine, and this can be done with heat exchangers to warm the oil to around 70 degrees, and starting and stopping the engine on diesel with a 2 tank system. Is that about right? Obviously still need to make sure the pump is up to it, diselveg have kits, and talk of 2005 vw vans running veg oil. Kits cost the same as about 5 or 6 tanks of diesel. Depending on where you can get veg oil from (chippy, kebab shop etc) and how they get rid of their old oil, which ive still to investigate, you could pay it back pretty quickly tbh...


.....that all sounds ok, you've done some good homework there.

From my experience with veg I would say twin tanking is the only way to go, trying to get almost any cold diesel engine to start on veg (svo or wvo) is unreliable at the best of times.

Wintertime is when you really start to get problems, trying to get the stuff to flow when the temps get down towards zero is not easy. Keep the pipe work fairly large (at least 10mm fuel pipe) and try to remove any restrictions in the feed line. Use any method you can to get some warmth into the vegoil before switching over to it. Some kind of thinning agent (I used up to 10% petrol) helps too.

Any cartridge or paper element type fuel filters will block fairly quickly using veg, I used to replace them with the inline transparent ones with a fine nylon mesh filter. These also have the advantage that you can see the crud building up in them and give them a flush out when necessary. I used to buy them on ebay, I'll see if I can find a link to them.

Hopefully the kits you mention address most of the issues, but you'll probably find that you still have to do some further mods to get a reliable system - it can be done though, and like you say the savings are well worth it.


Edit to add: Something like 5 X LARGE UNIVERSAL INLINE 8 - 10MM FUEL FILTER FILTERS DIESEL BIO VEG FF4 | eBay would do the trick, make sure the ones you get have 10mm (or greater) connections though. At a couple of quid each you can just throw them away if they get blocked...

[Edited on 30/1/13 by GeoffT]

Peteff - 5/2/13 at 09:45 AM

It has to be a diesel.

Ninehigh - 5/2/13 at 06:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
It has to be a diesel.


So that's why my astra ran like a bag of crap!