Hi there

My name is Matt and me and my friend Si have a small workshop where we build custom bikes and we both love old fords. I drive an 82 granada ghia x and he has all sorts of old fords. Lots of bikes between us.

Anyway, new on here, and couldn't see a new members post.

Basically, we are trying to get a westfield which belongs to a friend of mine going, it had a mega tuned x flow 1700 in it which was completely knackered, built for hill climbs and on max bore, so we have taken it out and sold it and bought a 96 mondeo donor car to get a silver top 1800 zetec engine. We started to take the engine out today and found out a load of stuff we have been told from various sources is wrong, the zetec is not standard ford bolt pattern, engine mounts etc wont fit, and according to burton site we might need to change bell housing, but we wont know for sure till we get it out and try to mate it up.

Anyway, I was looking for bits on the net and found a link to this forum, so thought I would join it and see what was what.

Does anyone know much about ford engine management systems? how much is involved in using the bits of the loom on the zetec engine and just fitting it all into the westfield? We were told the engine loom is stand alone on a zetec, but it seems to be very much integrated into the main car loom on the mondeo.

We have a pair of webber dcoe40s which came off the crossflow, but would like to get the injection going for reliability, I know my friend basically will want it for sunny afternoon drives, so dont want the faff of carbs needing balancing etc.

Has anyone done this conversion?

We have a fully equipped workshop and can weld to a good standard to engine mounts etc are not an issue, it's more guidance with the wiring side of things we need. A good diagram would be handy.

Thanks

Matt

Big_wasa is your new best friend!

He IS the go to man for anything Zetec. He will be along soon, but your in really safe hands !

Fantastic! thanks.

silvertop fits straight onto a type 9 box,dont forget the spigot bearing !,some messing around with the starter is needed,engine mounts,not really a problem,sump will need shortening.
most people use bike throttle bodies and megasquirt,that was the hardest bit for me,the rest is pretty simple :-)

Where to start.....


The 1.8 zetec as found in the Mondeo is the very same bell housing pattern as the xflow / pinto / cvh and so on.

You will need to do some work on the sump.

Yes engine mounts changed a little but these can be made or bought.

Engine management in the Mondeo is very much stand alone. One big plug near the air box. a 96 should be a silvertop.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=179921

In a locost the steering link fouls the inlet manifold. But Westfield did fit the zetec with the oem manifold and ecu . They made a low level plenum and air box.



[Edited on 25/5/15 by big_wasa]

quote:

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Originally posted by theconrodkid
silvertop fits straight onto a type 9 box,dont forget the spigot bearing !,some messing around with the starter is needed,engine mounts,not really a problem,sump will need shortening. most people use bike throttle bodies and megasquirt,that was the hardest bit for me,the rest is pretty simple :-)

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Thanks for the replies.

We are using the original box which I think is a rocket, although I can't remember as it's a while since we id'd it. Engine mounts no problem, we can weld those up and have found some pics on burton of a kit one they do for various applications which would be pretty easy to copy.

Interested in the sump, what is required in the way of mods?

I had a look at the link posted for the ecu and that seems ok, I am quite happy following diagrams, and my wiring is pretty good in terms of technique/neatness, it's more a lack of knowledge about modern systems as I have always worked on bikes and cars with carbs and am very inexperienced with management systems.

I found the multi pin to the ecu behind the dash, and I found the big square connector by the airbox, so is it a case of mounting the ecu in the car, then connecting wires from the westfield to the big square connector? I realise I am simplifying things, but I just mean in general terms.

We want to do it for the minimum outlay, so I suppose it depends how much of the original system can we use? we were hoping to fit a cone filter in place of the airbox filter (due to space) and see if the rest of the mondeo system would fit.

The twin webers are looking tempting at the moment, all we would need is a manifold for about £150.

Whats the power difference between a twin carb engine and the original system?

I don't want to start out trying to wire the management system and just get lost so the project stalls.

Thanks again

Matt

You'll probably get slightly more power with the carbs than the stock ECU, at least a higher peak value anyway
How good the rest of the power band is depends on how well you can setup the carbs, EFI does have quite a few advantages in this respect....


Or another option for you is bike carbs - I'm guessing these would be familiar territory for you
They are a favourite on here, they take a little more fiddling to setup the first time but the CV design makes the same power as Webbers and stays in tune better and uses a bit less fuel too
The biggest advantage is the cost as you can get a set of 4 for ~£50 (ZX6R or R6 are about right for an 1800)
Its possible to make your own manifold too (fastdan on here sells flanges, diy kits or premade ones)

But if you use any carbs you'll need an ECU of some kind to run the sparks as there is no way to run a dizzy.
You can use various stripped-down ford ECU's or one of the aftermarket standalone ones like megajolt or nodiz, etc.....

[Edited on 26/5/2015 by mcerd1]

If you want to keep costs down then a bit of reading around big_wasa's threads will get you there.

I've bought someone else's attempt at installing the standard ecu and was worried about maintaining that but actually the wiring isn't too bad and the pin out lists make it fairly straight forward to trace and troubleshoot is you have problems.

Where about in South Wales are you ? I may be able to help you out if you get stuck, I managed to wire my S2000 engine to Omex management somehow

quote:

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Originally posted by wylliezx9r
Where about in South Wales are you ? I may be able to help you out if you get stuck, I managed to wire my S2000 engine to Omex management somehow

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The 1.8 from the sierra you can use the metal sump from that you will also need a starter from the 1.8 sierra or the DOHC sierra if you can get one of these the standard one can be used but you need to make a 14 mm spacer. As for the flywheel use the 1.8 zetec flywheel its lighter many have used the pinto clutch and redrilled the flywheel to accept it.

Remember if you are fitting a silvertop zetec you also need the 1,6 water pump it turns the opposite way to the 2litre ones as fitted to mondeos due to the serpentine belt arrangement.

Thank you, looks like the sierra is a good source of parts.

Does anyone know if zetec petrol flywheels are interchangeable from fiesta/focus? Only because they are cheap as chips and mondeo ones are rare. I realise some are dual mass but plenty of standard ones around.

As soon as I looked on ebay to remind myself I saw the pinto is completely different sump shape. Amazing how much rubbish is on the internet.

fiesta's have zetec SE engines (i.e the 1.25/1.4 / 1.6 sigma engine - also in some focus's)

mondeo's have the zetec E (i.e. the 1.8 / 2.0 zeta engine also in focus's)
this is either in silvertop or blacktop form depending on the age

the only thing the two types have in common is the name....

quote:

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Originally posted by mattycoops43
I have seen mention of the fact that the early zetec is a development of the pinto and the sump will fit, does anyone know if this is right?

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Thanks for the info guys. This forum has been extremely helpful.

Slight change of direction, we looked at it all this morning, and I think we are going to mount the twin webers we have, the reason being we have to weigh up the amount of time it takes us to do all the wiring up versus spending the owners money on the parts. We have auto ecu and by the time we start looking at different ford ecu's it just becomes hassle. Plus we are not even sure if we get the whole original system running how much of the intake side will even fit under the bonnet of a slimline westfield. Westfield fit a low level plenum when they use zetecs, but anything from westfield is crazy money.

Have been told to look at MBE and DTA ecu's by someone who does grass track racing, as they are mostly running modern engines, but not allowed to use injection. So we want a spark only ecu to run with the carbs.

Has anyone had any experience of either, or a recommendation for a different make? I looked at megasquirt, but they seem to have gone totally in to full management systems, and they even say on their own website, MS1 is now obsolete.

Another issue, we spoke to Scholar engines today to order a sump and they are no longer doing them as they can't get the donor ones to convert. Apparently they need to be a 2.0 sump to do the conversion so they can't mod our 1.8. Not sure why but bit of a shame as it was a cheap option at £110 exchange.

Anyone know of a company supplying or modding sumps? (without spending silly money on a raceline

This is supposed to be really good for spark only :

NODIZ

Nodiz and megajolt are the main ignition only ECU's at the moment

Megajolt is a bit old fashioned and needs ignition controller donor bits (ford EDIS)
But its a tried and tested system, you might even be able to find a secondhand one
Its possible to get all you'll need for MJ for less than £150
A TPS version from the states is about £125, then all you need is the EDIS4 and its wires/plugs from the scrapyard along with whatever TPS sensor you like to fit onto the Webbers.
The crank sensor, trigger wheel and coilpack you need are all just the stock zetec ones you've got already.


Nodiz is still quite new, but is getting a good write up from the folk on here that are running it
He's currently got a group buy thread on here too

Or you could just use the ford ESC module, its a stand alone controller that not tunable, used for a while in the 90's on fiestas and escorts with certain engines.
It uses a vac line for load sensing though which can take a bit of fiddling when you have multiple carbs


Emerald, omex, etc do stripped-down ignition only versions too, but they are a fair bit more £ than the above options...
Some folk use Webber alpha, but it gets locked so that you can't adjust it and its not cheap either....

[Edited on 27/5/2015 by mcerd1]

You need another part as well with the engine being an auto.

The zetec has no distributor as its electronic. For any ecu to work it needs a crank position signal and fords being 36-1. This is built into the back of the flywheel or in your case the flex plate.

The sensor for the two is the same but the housing the sensor sits in is not. You WILL need the manual cps housing or a front mount trigger wheel and that is much more work.



The fly wheel wants to be from a 1.8 escort /focus / mondeo/ orion and so on.

Water pump and pulley need to come from a zetec escort. You then just have three pulleys and tension the belt by swinging the alternator. The water pump on the Mondeo lump runs backwards.

Wyn's picture, mine have vanished. (also shows trigger wheel for flywheels with out )



Sump, you could try Dunnell engines. Tiger did a cast one as do Westfield. All come up second hand from time to time.

Webers are not known for running well on a 16v engine unless set up to do so with extra progression drillings. That's not to say they wont. I cant tune them but I can build fuel injection systems.

You are correct with your ecu being from an auto it is of no use due to gearbox inputs but ecu's are cheap and the loom could be reworked.

Westfield no longer sell the plenum. But I do have one in the garage with there air box

As they say. More than one way to skin a cat.

Guys, this info is golden! Thank you.

I was getting totally overwhelmed by this, all getting a bit scary, but I think we are getting to grips with it. I have read up on the webers, they work well with the 5th progression hole, and that can be drilled, (possibly even bu us as we are fairly well set up).

No diz looks excellent and a great price, we had pretty much decided on omex and thats 400 so massive saving. I like nodiz as it's all included. Will look into it more.

Group buy?? oo yes please!

can anyone tell me if this alt bracket off an xr3i will fit the zetec? bolt pattern looks the same but not sure about compatability?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-ESCORT-MK3-XR3-XR3i-RS1600i-RS-TURBO-ALTERNATOR-MOUNTING-BRACKET-/221784979931?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item33a36 a39db

Hi guys

Well, it's all coming along nicely, gradually getting the bits together, and almost ready to go in the car.

I have a question for you though. We got a sierra 1.8 flywheel to use as our donor was auto. Got the cps housing etc as previously mentioned. However, sierras don't have a CPS!

Is it possible to weld the tag onto the flywheel? Are there specs anywhere for exactly where it goes?

Or does a manual mondeo flywheel do the job exactly?

Thanks in advance!

Oh yes, the cvh flywheel has 3 holes drill in the back of it in one place, but we are assuming they are balancing wheels? Will they be cps trigger points? I know an external trigger wheel uses a flat to send signal.

quote:

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Originally posted by mattycoops43However, sierras don't have a CPS! Thanks in advance!

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Thanks.

Bit frustrated with myself, bit of a boob. The question is what's the easiest way round it now. I have a sierra clutch cover and a 20 spline clutch plate on order, all 215mm. If I get an early mondeo flywheel can I combine it? I've heard talk of a mondeo 220mm clutch.

Trying to avoid using a trigger wheel if possible.

I just typed out a reply and lost the lot

You want either the flywheel and cover plate from a 1.8 zetec 220mm not 240mm.

So that's a mondeo, escort, fiesta, Orion and others.

Or

The flywheel from a 1.6 cvh efi. Rare as only made late 1990 and 1991.
Sierra cvh 1.6 efi is an easy fit being rwd to start with.
Escort cvh 1.6 efi is lighter but thinner so will need a non standard thrust bearing.

Both the above need the holes opening up to fit the zetec but it's just a case of running a drill bit through the holes already there.

[Edited on 5/6/15 by big_wasa]

Thanks Wasa.
Do you know what year mondeo clutch is ok, is it any single mass silver top or is the duratec the change to dual mass? Don't want to buy ANOTHER wrong flywheel, I have a collection building up here.

So-to date we are running-

96 1.8 silvertop auto donor
NODIZ ignition system
Burton inlet manifold
Twin weber dcoe40s
exhaust flange in stainless which the original exhaust can be welded to
Escort reversed water pump with ribbed pulley wheel
new cam belt/aux belt (short for triangulated set up)
Lowered sump from Dunnell Engines
zetec to mk1 escort crossmember engine mounts from burton
Manual zetec CPS housing

Car is running a type 3 box which is the crappest one for the job, its the small engine box so we think it's lower ratio, and has 20 spline input, we thought we had a spare 23 spline box but it turned out to be another type 3 so we are stuck with a 20 spline clutch plate. Also, 23 spline box has larger output so propshaft (custom made expensive one wouldn't fit anyway)

Bought in error/cobbled together-
Sierra 1.8 flywheel with no cps trigger
sierra 215mm clutch complete with 23 spline plate (as we thought we had a 23 spline box) and release bearing
Sierra 215mm 20 spline clutch plate to go with the type 3 box.
15-21 spigot bearing

Have we missed anything?

If we get a zetec 220mm flywheel and cover plate will the sierra 215mm plate go in it ok?

Never played with a 4spd so I cant advise on what it will work with but a 220mm 1.8 zetec flywheel is as good a bet as any. Blacktop or silvertop but not duratec .

1.6 cvh efi should work as well. Sierra is thick and heavy but should be bolt on Escort is thinner and lighter but will need a deeper thrust bearing.

Just make sure it has the trigger pick up unlike the 1.8 cvh

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261913685206?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Shows the trigger pick up and you can see the depth of the Sierra cvh efi flywheel.

[Edited on 6/6/15 by big_wasa]

So which bit is the pickup, out of curiosity, I can see the raised bit but there's 3 of those, and aren't the holes for balancing?

Big Wasa, you have helped me out so much! I really appreciate it!

I think I am sorting this clutch issue now, but there seems to be a shortage of early mondeo flywheels. I have found a cheap one in Germany and a very expensive one in denmark. None uk based so far on the bay. Millions of tdci ones and dual mass ones.

I realise it's hard to tell from little pics, but can you tell me if you think these would go together?

Ford Mondeo I 1.8 16v Flywheel Engine Rkb #14189 | eBay
acialogan


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371303711128?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The mondeo cover here looks extremely similar to an old style sierra etc cover, the same symetrical pattern, do you reckon the sierra clutch and cover I ordered would go onto a zetec floywheel?

I realise you can't say for definite unless you have done it, I am just after an opinion?

Thanks

Matt

Hi there

Well, we've been waiting for parts, mainly a zetec flywheel as it's getting hard to find them as most of the zetecs went dual mass.

Ok, we have flywheel and clutch all mounted, gearbox all mates up fine and release bearing working. We ended up using a sierra cover and redrilling it so it fitted the zetec flywheel as the zetec is a slightly smaller diameter (by a few mm)

Next sticking point is the starter. The zetec has a finer starting ring tooth pattern than the old type 3 gearbox. and the mount bolts are not the same pattern. The type 3 bell housing holds a starter that flings back and has the wrong tooth pattern for the zetec flywheel, the zetec flywheel is fling out and meshes with the flywheel but wont fit the bellhousing mounting.

is there a specific starter that will be the right offset etc to go between the 2?