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russbost - 17/1/16 at 04:58 PM

Apologies if it's a repost (couldn't find anything on search), & my own view is "very expensive snake oil", but what do we think about this

Linky

I know flowcells exist, but didn't think they'd got outside of the lab yet, & far from running on salt water I thought they used very refined metallic salts which is quite different, the owner appears to be very dodgy too!

Oh! & what the heck is "harmless ionic water dust", last time I saw water & dust together they made sludge!

Sam_68 - 17/1/16 at 09:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost...far from running on salt water I thought they used very refined metallic salts which is quite different...


The website refers to the fuel as being 'ionic liquid', which doesn't sound quite the same as saltwater? Is there a reference to saltwater on there that I'm missing?

But yes, common sense suggests that with words like 'nano' and 'ionic' being used, it'll have to be pretty refined to ensure that the flowcell doesn't simply get clogged up with sh1t.

02GF74 - 17/1/16 at 09:59 PM

It doesnt run on saltwater but uses energy in the elecrolyte and that energy comes from somwhere.

I think it is like having a lead acd battery and when it had discharged, replace the acid from another charged battery.

No such thing as a free lunch.

More about it here.
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/salt-water-car-not-so-fast

Sam_68 - 17/1/16 at 10:32 PM

Yes, that much is understood - but it would still be a viable battery technology if, instead of having to wait a couple of hours to recharge, you could just pump 50 litres of saltwater into your tank and be on your way.

The question is how much refinement/processing is required to produce the 'ionic fluid'.

If it's basically seawater, strained through a sieve to get rid of the jellyfish and used condoms, great.

If it's been highly processed to retain a precise balance of metallic salts at a high level of purity, not so great - the cost and environmental impact of the refinement may well dramatically outweigh the end benefits of the 'fuel'.

russbost - 17/1/16 at 10:58 PM

The "saltwater" quote came from another website I think. there is a ton of stuff about it on the web, including (I thought strangely) on Wiki, it's a fairly typical sort of Daily Mail type headline "car runs on salt water", rather than "if we refine seawater to a certain point & separate parts of it's cell structure we get a fuel which we can use - however it probably takes 10x the energy to produce than it produces" - I'm no journalist, but I'm pretty sure which makes the best headline!

Neville Jones - 19/1/16 at 03:43 PM

Battery acid is an ionic liquid..........

MikeRJ - 19/1/16 at 06:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Yes, that much is understood - but it would still be a viable battery technology if, instead of having to wait a couple of hours to recharge, you could just pump 50 litres of saltwater into your tank and be on your way.


Google suggest the "Quant F" variant has two 200 litre tanks. That's a lot of electrolyte.

Sam_68 - 19/1/16 at 06:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Google suggest the "Quant F" variant has two 200 litre tanks. That's a lot of electrolyte.


And they're only quoting a 500 mile range? My shopping car can go that far on 35 litres...

Whatever they're using would certainly have to be as cheap as seawater, by the time you've allowed for the cost of installing the infrastructure for the fuel suppliers to sell it!

And does that mean you've got 400 kilos of fuel to haul around when the tanks are full, and a 400 kilo difference in weight to accommodate on your suspension design, between full and empty?

russbost - 19/1/16 at 08:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Google suggest the "Quant F" variant has two 200 litre tanks. That's a lot of electrolyte.


And they're only quoting a 500 mile range? My shopping car can go that far on 35 litres...

Whatever they're using would certainly have to be as cheap as seawater, by the time you've allowed for the cost of installing the infrastructure for the fuel suppliers to sell it!

And does that mean you've got 400 kilos of fuel to haul around when the tanks are full, and a 400 kilo difference in weight to accommodate on your suspension design, between full and empty?


I rather doubt your shopping car has around 1000 bhp, does 0 - 60 in 2.8 secs & 300kmh!!! A 500 mile range for a car of that power would be pretty impressive, doesn't the Veyron run out of fuel in less than 100 miles with your foot to the floor?

Not necessarily 400kgs, petrol is a mere 0.7kg/litre or thereabouts!

Perhaps their ionic liquid weighs only 0.5kg/litre in which case would be a mere 200kgs difference from full to empty!

Perhaps it's Hydrogen in one tank (tho' don't think that qualifies as ionic liquid!) & it actually makes the car lighter as you fill it!

& I still want to know what "harmless ionic water dust" is - tho' I suspect it may smell very strongly of BS!

Oh! & of course it can only be as cheap as seawater b4 they slap the tax on it!

Sam_68 - 19/1/16 at 08:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
I rather doubt your shopping car has around 1000 bhp, does 0 - 60 in 2.8 secs & 300kmh!!!


But equally, I rather doubt that the quoted 500 mile range is based on exercising any more than a tiny fraction of that performance.

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Not necessarily 400kgs, petrol is a mere 0.7kg/litre or thereabouts!

Perhaps their ionic liquid weighs only 0.5kg/litre in which case would be a mere 200kgs difference from full to empty!


On the other hand, it seems probable that my figures are more likely to actually be optimistic.

Bear in mind that seawater is denser than freshwater; even normal seawater can be up to 1,050kg/m3 and it's by no means fully saturated with salt. The Dead Sea is 1,240kg/m3, according to Google. One might assume that their 'ionic liquid' is even more fully saturated with metallic salts, therefore even denser?

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
I still want to know what "harmless ionic water dust" is


Yes, me too! The word 'dust' seems to imply it's dry... that'll be dehydrated water, then?

Neville Jones - 20/1/16 at 11:49 AM

400kg's of fuel is a lot of batteries,,,,filled with ionic fluid!

Sam_68 - 20/1/16 at 12:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
400kg's of fuel is a lot of batteries,,,,filled with ionic fluid!


It is indeed! And the conventional batteries would have a higher energy density.

... but the alleged advantage of flow cells is that you 'recharge' them by pumping in fresh electrolyte (which takes minutes) rather than waiting several hours for an electrical current to reverse the electrochemical reaction that has taken place as you discharged them.

There's other very promising research under way on the rapid charging of Lithium Ion batteries that could render the flow cell's 'advantage' redundant overnight, though, so it's certainly not a technology I'd be wanting to invest money in right now.