Saw a few minutes of a TV show last night covering Grp B rally cars. The part I saw showed Peugeot's 205 T16 and elaborated on how successful it was.

I have to say as a fan of the car I knew it was good, but didn't realise quite how well it destroyed the competition. What a shame they were banned - IMHO due to spectator errors.

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Originally posted by nick205
- IMHO due to spectator errors.

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I think the 405 T16 would have followed in the 205's footsteps pretty well if group B had continued to exist, it was sucessful enough in it's own right at Pikes Peak and Paris Dakar.

Ari Vatanen 405 T16 Pikes Peak

Dave

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Originally posted by obfripper
I think the 405 T16 would have followed in the 205's footsteps pretty well if group B had continued to exist, it was sucessful enough in it's own right at Pikes Peak and Paris Dakar.

Ari Vatanen 405 T16 Pikes Peak

Dave

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Originally posted by loggyboy

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Originally posted by nick205
- IMHO due to spectator errors.

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Poor spectator management - mainly down to lack of FIA interest in rallying.

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Seeing and hearing group B cars coming through the woods was un-forgettable


Feel sorry for those that missed it as its just not the same now

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Originally posted by loggyboy

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Originally posted by nick205
- IMHO due to spectator errors.

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Poor spectator management - mainly down to lack of FIA interest in rallying.

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I was reading a thread elsewhere about cheating in motorsport and there was a suggestion that Lancia had (illegally) used nitrous oxide in the S4 and that had contributed to Toivenens death. So perhaps it was not purely the spectators who were out of control...

The 205 T16 was dominant but weren't Peugeot pulled up for a few things (wings / skirts?)?

Definitely a great rally era though

The closest thing to a group b car in recent years was Andy burtons 306. Surprise surprise it was banned. Rallying lost a lot of spectators after that car was no longer allowed to compete. It still resides about 10 miles from me. Perhaps he will let me have the engine as he isn't using it anymore!

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Originally posted by Adamirish
The closest thing to a group b car in recent years was Andy burtons 306. Surprise surprise it was banned. Rallying lost a lot of spectators after that car was no longer allowed to compete. It still resides about 10 miles from me. Perhaps he will let me have the engine as he isn't using it anymore!

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i know Andys original co driver, from the 306, 6R4 and Alfa Ferrari days. Andys a great engineer.

re the 205T16, they came in after some into GrpB so had the benefit of seeing how not to do it. They, like Ford with the RS200 went mid engine to kill some of the understeer inherent in the front engined Quattro (even after Audi lopped the centre out of the thing to create the SWB versions!).
the 205 used a transverse engine, which caused some strange torque reaction over jumps, hence the push for better aero and the front canards and huge rear wing

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Originally posted by CNHSS1
i know Andys original co driver, from the 306, 6R4 and Alfa Ferrari days. Andys a great engineer.

re the 205T16, they came in after some into GrpB so had the benefit of seeing how not to do it. They, like Ford with the RS200 went mid engine to kill some of the understeer inherent in the front engined Quattro (even after Audi lopped the centre out of the thing to create the SWB versions!).
the 205 used a transverse engine, which caused some strange torque reaction over jumps, hence the push for better aero and the front canards and huge rear wing

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One of the things I've heard said as the 'problem' about Group B was the manufacturers stopped rallying the cars they built for the road, and started building road versions of the cars they rallied... (although Lancia did already have the Stratos)...

Metro 6r4 is equally far from the 'real' car it was supposedly based on (and it's also an interesting story if you haven't read about it being built by Williams of F1 fame and using the engine that ended up in the XJ220. Ish).

if you think GrpB was wild, google Group S ;-)

Group B was already planned to be dropped to allow real specials. Toyota made a GrpS MR2, its in their museum and Audi had a mid engine Quattro. Lancias Grp S Delta made their GrpB car look tame.

theres some mythology around the Grp S Quattro. The story goes along the lines of they built 2 or 3 and walter Rohrl tested it over the border in some eastern block country on normal roads!!! the story was they dropped it on the roads, he blasted it around and the local police thought it was gunfire from the anti lag so the car was quickly scooped back into the truck and driven away as the Audi board weren't fully aware of its existence. Real cool

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Originally posted by jps
Metro 6r4 is equally far from the 'real' car it was supposedly based on

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Race Retro show @ Stoneleigh 26th-28th Feb with rally cars in action on Sat & Sun.

http://www.raceretro.com/live-rally-stage/4586764460

Ford rs200 used ford tailights and sierra windscreen, wing mirrors and doors based on a production model (think cut down sierra)

GrpB wasnt supposed to be road relevant, but i believe it was essier to use that as a corporate reason for pulling the plug rather than 'we keep killing spectators and crew'...

If tye spectator control was managed correctly it eould be as dangerous, but Johnny Foreigenr does like to touch their heroes cars as well as look at them.for some strange reason!

Let's be honest now, those group b cars had become crazy fast and something had to give.That something unfortunately was the young life of Henri Toivonen.The FIA really had no choice but to can group b.And to think an even faster group s was being mooted at the time!

I'm not old enough tohave seen the group b rallying with my own eyes but have watched plenty of videos and with my boss being a rally driver he has told me plenty of stories. I would have loved to have seen just how far they would develop. I doubt it would have been long until we saw 1000bhp monsters ripping around the stages. Though in fairness, pulling the plug when they did was probably the right move. Plenty of videos around of cars ploughing through the crowds etc. It was never going to last.

I doubt Toivennen would have lived to old age irrespective of group B, hes one of those 'shines twice as bright for half as long' sorts.

Kalle Grundels accident with spectators also added much bad PR so FIA had to do something, albeit a bit knee jerk.

Today if you want to see cars equivalent to group B, you need to watch rallycross RX or world RX championship

Group S was planned for rallying and circuit racing

Another thing I learnt recently was that the Escort Cosworth was derived from a Sierra Cosworth - wonder how many are left these days?

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Originally posted by nick205
Another thing I learnt recently was that the Escort Cosworth was derived from a Sierra Cosworth - wonder how many are left these days?

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^^^ last year it was 547 on the road and 680 on a SORN apparently


https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/ford_escort_rs_cosworth

The escort cossie shares a lot of parts with the sierra cossie 4x4 (basically the same drivetrain and floor pan with a few minor tweaks - that's then been made to look like an escort) but doesn't share any parts with the 'real' escorts
in fact the ford workshop manual for all the cossie's makes more distinction between a 2wd and a 4x4 than between the 4x4 and the escort



nothing like as rare as the RS200:
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/ford_rs_200_4wd
or the 6R4:
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/mg_metro_6r4

[Edited on 26/1/2016 by mcerd1]

[Edited on 26/1/2016 by mcerd1]

Not surprising that the road going versions of Group B cars are rare though, homologation only required 200 to be built, then 20 'evolution' versions could be built and it seems fairly well documented that most manufacturers didn't really build 200 (there's a story about FIA officials going to inspect one lot of cars, seeing 100 of them at one factory, then going off for lunch before seeing a 'different' 100 somewhere else!)...

I wonder how many of the Citroën BX Group B car are still kicking about. ..

Regarding the 200 build to get homologation, the story goes that the cash strapped longbridge concern hadnt built 200 6R4s when the fia inspectors came around, but cars in build was acceptable so the inspectors were shown some built cars and a large number of part built 6R4s on dollies but nowhere near enough to meet the required 200. The inspection was halted for a rather slap up lunch whilst they were wined and dined whilst the part built cars on dollies were hastily wheeled from one building to another. After lunch the inspectors got to see the second bunch of cars in build, and when totted up was just enough to meet the 200 required! Likelihood is that there were 120-150 only at that time.

Gotta love the enginuity

[Edited on 26/1/16 by CNHSS1]

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Originally posted by CNHSS1
Regarding the 200 build to get homologation, the story goes that the cash strapped longbridge concern hadnt built 200 6R4s when the fia inspectors came around, but cars in build was acceptable so the inspectors were shown some built cars and a large number of part built 6R4s on dollies but nowhere near enough to meet the required 200. The inspection was halted for a rather slap up lunch whilst they were wined and dined whilst the part built cars on dollies were hastily wheeled from one building to another. After lunch the inspectors got to see the second bunch of cars in build, and when totted up was just enough to meet the 200 required! Likelihood is that there were 120-150 only at that time.

Gotta love the enginuity

[Edited on 26/1/16 by CNHSS1]

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Originally posted by CNHSS1
if you think GrpB was wild, google Group S ;-)

Group B was already planned to be dropped to allow real specials. Toyota made a GrpS MR2, its in their museum and Audi had a mid engine Quattro. Lancias Grp S Delta made their GrpB car look tame.

theres some mythology around the Grp S Quattro. The story goes along the lines of they built 2 or 3 and walter Rohrl tested it over the border in some eastern block country on normal roads!!! the story was they dropped it on the roads, he blasted it around and the local police thought it was gunfire from the anti lag so the car was quickly scooped back into the truck and driven away as the Audi board weren't fully aware of its existence. Real cool

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Originally posted by nick205
Another thing I learnt recently was that the Escort Cosworth was derived from a Sierra Cosworth - wonder how many are left these days?

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