[Edited on 26/7/17 by avagolen]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581
A complete ban on petrol and diesel cars from 2040. I know that there have been one or two electric cars, but most kit car builders probably
don't have the facilities to work with hybrids or milk floats.
As ever no doubt the details will come out later, but as most low volume manufacturers are already moving I to hybrids, will we be left out in the
cold?
'No new cars' so if we use 'old parts' and aim for a 'Q' plate, then that will be ok, won't it........
[Edited on 26/7/17 by avagolen]
Yes does depend on the definition of "new".
Otherwise I guess we need to get the spammers back about and start reading up on electric motors!! In my last job I was working on 'Electric and
Hybrig vehicle technology international' magazine and saw a lot of interesting stuff including electric kit cars...
What about HGVs and buses?
Well I hope they plan on updating our electricity infrastructure then because when we all plug our cars in there won't be enough
'leccy' to go around.
We'll all be building electric kit cars by then anyway.
I'd be prepared to bet this has not in any sensible way been thought thro', I was told some years ago that there isn't enough Lithium
on the planet to power more than about 40% of the vehicles we had at that time, I don't know for sure that that's true, but it would seem
quite likely, also how much is recoverable once you've used it once in a battery?
You can guarantee it will run out at some point, as will many other precious & non-precious metals, unless we stop the human population
explosion, I think we'll have a lot more to worry about by 2040 than what we're powering our cars with .............
Who to say lithium cells, or even electric cars, will be the best technology come 2040?
I am betting the future is hybrid, and that it is purely petrol or diesels that will disappear.
Just think about it, all those terraced houses in the country, how are they going to charge their cars?
Plus I think (happy to be wrong) that as a country we are already marginal on electricity production. How is that going to cope with the 6pm surge
when everybody gets home, plugs their car in, puts the oven on and makes a cuppa??
OK, we are all dooooomed.
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Who to say lithium cells, or even electric cars, will be the best technology come 2040?
Mine already moves on the starter so is it a hybrid?
As others have pointed out here, there is just about electrickery now to go round,a bigger population, unable to park outside you home so no chance of
charging your buggy,i think personal transport will be for the rich only, everyone else will have to take the bus.
so unless someone discovers a new power source, we are screwed.
quote:
Just think about it, all those terraced houses in the country, how are they going to charge their cars?
Wishy washy statement made to make us look like we care just like other countries banning them 20-30 years into the future. Who thought 20-30 years
ago we'd be heading back to electric cars capable of 300 miles and speeds over 100mph in them?
As mentioned, there is a lot more to worry about as to what cars we'll be driving or flying 
On a unrelated side note....anyone know where I can buy petrol tankers and how long petrol keeps for? Asking for a friend.....
quote:
Originally posted by WallerZero
Wishy washy statement made to make us look like we care just like other countries banning them 20-30 years into the future. Who thought 20-30 years ago we'd be heading back to electric cars capable of 300 miles and speeds over 100mph in them?
As mentioned, there is a lot more to worry about as to what cars we'll be driving or flying
On a unrelated side note....anyone know where I can buy petrol tankers and how long petrol keeps for? Asking for a friend.....
We'll need a few more Hinckley Point's, not just increasing the current extension cables from Norway and Denmark.
More words though, from the political class (who will be able to afford new, heavily taxed, personal transport in 2020) who brought us the Dome, HS2,
IT and other fine well-managed projects. Mainly, it seems a London thing..
Working folk to be screwed again, nothing new here, move on.
Most of us that are still interested in physical things, beyond the phone screen, will be in driverless mobility scooters. Assuming, of course,
there's any space left to do so, or any need to.
It'll all be virtual.
Its only a ban on the sale of new Petrol and diesel cars from 2040, though some reports seem to be scaremongering it to appear as though all petrol
and diesel cars will have to be scrapped by 2040.
Kit built cars based on parts from existing cars are not 'new' cars so it seems only Caterham and similar would have to worry.
The biggest problem facing petrol cars over the next 20 or so years is going to be the decline in petrol availability as by 2040 almost all cars will
be electric or alternative fuel, so the availability of petrol will be much less widespread and thus more expensive.
It would seem likely that kit cars in the future will have to gravitate toward 48v electric if they are to survive.
I'm still waiting for the Ford Nucleon to go into production
Suspect this is the sort of thing we have to expect - sorry it's very American, & a few years old now, but makes a good point
Dinky Linky
Great headline fodder but I suspect as soon as the Government realise how much they will loose in revenue from road tax, fuel duty, garage servicing
VAT, sales of oil/plugs/filters VAT, loss of jobs in petrol/diesel engine servicing and parts production and infrastructure costs including adding
25-50% to the UK power generating capacity they may change their minds. This is obviously based on the fact that the assumed solution is fully
electric drive, however this may differ if Hydrogen fuel cells are the most likely long term option.
Interestingly this is put out in the same week as news on local electricity storage from Solar/Wind on every house which I guess could be used to
charge up your car.
This is likely to go hand in hand with Autonomous vehicles (as has been said) which will mean we don't own cars. This will have a knock on effect to a large number of industries from car parts/car manufacturing to insurance and car parking. Complete disruption of the current economy, no taxi drivers/van drivers/bus drivers etc etc.
Road transport uses more energy than the total capacity of our current electric supply, so power generation and distribution capacity will have to at
least double, since the grid is already >95% loaded in the winter. Even if we started now, it is unlikely we could build that much nuclear power in
that time. Would probably need to make it compulsary to have charging points in all workplace/commercial parking, and parking/charging meters on all
roads. Buy shares in copper cable/battery/cgarge station manufacturers now!
On the other hand I have run about 300k on LPG and that isn't petrol or diesel, so would you still be able to buy a 'petrol' car as
long as it was running on LPG?
Hydrogen is possible, but I think too dangerous (we use it where I work - I would want to be too close to somewhere storing a lot of it, especially
cars when they get old and not well maintained)
Methanol/alcohol could be burned directly in modified petrol engines, or in a fuel cell.
Mine is the all electric car towing a dirty great diesel generator running on red diesel!
Can't remember what the Rover that had the gas turbine used as fuel - kerosene I think, so thats ok!
ETA
A few years ago the government commissioned a report on whether renewables could provide all the UKs energy - I think they intended it to be
'electricity' which is only 28% of our total energy use. I think it was Manchester university engineering dept or somewhere like that. They
looked at solar, wind, tidal, water storage in artificial lakes etc. It concluded that you basically can't do it with any single renewable source
(except tidal). Wind power could produce just over 20% of our annual energy needs - but that was spacing the wind turbines at optimal spacing over the
whole of the uk and as far out to sea as it was technically possible to build them, and didn't even consider how that much energy could be stored
to be able to use it when you wanted it!
[Edited on 26/7/17 by hughpinder]
[Edited on 26/7/17 by hughpinder]
Great goal, probably not the best way to achieve it. Myself, id restart the fuel duty escalator, maintain subsidies on electric cars, create tax
breaks for companies involved in research into these fields (energy generation, storage, transmission, driverless tech, intelligent energy usage,
etc), and proper state intervention into the nation electricity market. Hinkley Point is one of the worst deals ever signed, an absolute shocker.
I'm not convinced that nuclear power is the way forward (the strike price agreed will be higher than renewables in a few years time, and the
clean up cost when it's decommissioned will be eye watering). Tidal power is as reliable as clockwork, can actually provide 24hr output, the
concrete lasts 120 years, and there is no nuclear contamination to clean up. That, coupled with developments in high voltage dc transmission, and
intelligent storage in all the cars that happen to be plugged in, is where I think the future is. Its absolutely clear to me that we cant carry on
this way, but at the same time, i'm no fan of ham-fisted government intervention like outright bans.
To summarise:
-urgent and immediate scrappage scheme to get the worst diesels off the road
-gentle but relentless rises in fuel duty
-maintain ze subsidies
-get to work preparing the national grid for the changes that have been obviously approaching for a decade
and maybe most importantly, agreements across Europe to bring similar measures in across the continent. If only we were key players in a
continent-wide body that could rapidly bring out harmonised regulations!
I see headlines like these and immediately start looking for the 'real' stories that are being hidden....Any politicians up to no good?!
quote:
Any politicians up to no good?!
electric cars are easy to build as kit or home built cars, just not very cost effective currently when compared to an engine
I don't see why this will do the kit car industry any real harm whatsoever. Battery, controller and motor costs will plummet the more are
produced....I bet by 2040 even my old deadweight brick of a landy could at last be converted effectively. Bring it on
What's this nonsense about horses? Me and my men will have a field cleared in a week, and sown in a day. I'm sure this will just blow
over.
There's talk of steam engines overtaking the horse. I can't see it myself. They need water every 10 miles, who's going to put water
points across all of the country? And the same for coal?! There's no interest in something that can only go that far. I'll be sticking with
my horse. We've got shire horses for working the fields, horses for transport and small ponies for working down the pits. I'm sure this will
just blow over, you'll see.
People on the streets are sayin' that this new kind of engine is going to overtake the steam engine. What a load of codswallop. This empire was
built on steam, it's lasted a hundred years and will last hundreds more. We've improved them over the years and they'll keep getting
better. We've got steam engines for our boats, trains, traction engines and pumping houses. People are buying petrol in tins, it'll take
ages to fill your car up! And how are they going to get petrol to every town and village across Britain? I've seen some of these new petrol cars,
they can only go 20 miles and I can run faster! No, I'm sorry, steam is king and it's here to stay. I'm confident that this will all
blow over.
I've heard about electric vehicles are the up and coming trend. What tripe. My diesel engine will keep on ticking for another 300 thousand miles,
I've no need for a car that can only go 100 miles! And how are we going to get electricity to people's homes? This will definitely blow
over, mark my words.
[Edited on 26-7-2017 by Benzine]
It must be remembered that we have grown up in an age where the expectation of being able to travel anywhere and at anytime is seen as a right rather than a privilege. We are going to go back to a time when traveling to the next town is an event rather than a right, as we think of it now thus transport especially personal/private transport will be a thing of the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
What's this nonsense about .....
becomes the 'best' choice for consumers - with I suspect
'best' being defined as 'the cheapest to them' - there will be an natural shift over. Prime example - the shift to diesel over the
last few decades. quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
I am betting the future is hybrid, and that it is purely petrol or diesels that will disappear.
Just think about it, all those terraced houses in the country, how are they going to charge their cars?
Plus I think (happy to be wrong) that as a country we are already marginal on electricity production. How is that going to cope with the 6pm surge when everybody gets home, plugs their car in, puts the oven on and makes a cuppa??
OK, we are all dooooomed.
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
I see headlines like these and immediately start looking for the 'real' stories that are being hidden....Any politicians up to no good?!
quote:
Originally posted by chillis
It would seem likely that kit cars in the future will have to gravitate toward 48v electric if they are to survive.
Giving up our fossil fuel based cars for an electric vehicle is not at this point a cost effective alternative solution. 99% of businesses only care
about the bottom line. The business I work for maintains a large fleet of vehicles (both cars and lorries) and we would convert to electric in a
second if it would prove profitable. At this point it doesn't prove cost effective. We have a profit share scheme and if the management said
'we can change to electric but your profit share will go down'. I know which way the vote would go.
Until petrol and diesel transportation starts hurting peoples pockets we will not adopt electric as a nation.
Dutton log books would be worth 10 k or so
20 years time, the scrappies will be full of tesla S100D's/BMW i8's. So we'll have 400bhp kitcars that are charged by a solar panel on
the roof.
What's not to like
Super capacitors are being developed already . Once that happens properly . Bye bye petrol/diesel.
Cant see the oil companys going with this.
Anybody seen the program 'who killed the electric car?'
[Edited on 26/7/17 by coozer]
quote:
Originally posted by jelly head
What about HGVs and buses?
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
20 years time, the scrappies will be full of tesla S100D's/BMW i8's. So we'll have 400bhp kitcars that are charged by a solar panel on the roof.
What's not to like
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
20 years time, the scrappies will be full of tesla S100D's/BMW i8's. So we'll have 400bhp kitcars that are charged by a solar panel on the roof.
What's not to like
What about the flux capacitor 
then we'll be able to travel back to the future to have a look at transport towards infinity and beyond...
quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
Super capacitors are being developed already . Once that happens properly . Bye bye petrol/diesel.
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
20 years time, the scrappies will be full of tesla S100D's/BMW i8's. So we'll have 400bhp kitcars that are charged by a solar panel on the roof.
What's not to like
Ummm, the fact that to get sufficient charge from a solar panel on the roof you'd need to charge up for about 3 weeks to get 10 miles down the road & back!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
20 years time, the scrappies will be full of tesla S100D's/BMW i8's. So we'll have 400bhp kitcars that are charged by a solar panel on the roof.
What's not to like
Ummm, the fact that to get sufficient charge from a solar panel on the roof you'd need to charge up for about 3 weeks to get 10 miles down the road & back!!!
Probably be a bit more development between now and then. We are talking 20 odd years away after all.
Only problem being how often do we
get 5 days of full 8hrs sun, so it would probably be more like 10 days, but still, I grant you, better than the 3 weeks I originally predicted! Now
the only problem is if I want to do more than a 20 mile round trip every 10 days or so or if I want a more powerful motor!
Going back to good old fashioned horse powered transport may be the way as they must be carbon neutral but burning them as fuel would probably smell a
lot and their quite bulky so some sort of big blender may be required
I once poured chicken fat into a fire and it went up like petrol 
and a horse is a lot bigger than a chicken...
So much thinking above is stagnated to the world around us as it is today. Think outside the box
Simple solution to a lot of the problems of recharging......user replaceable battery packs/ trays call it what you will. I am 99.9% sure its already
been thought of and is being worked on (if not its my idea and I claim £0.01 per pack built in future)
You will still visit a 'petrol' station (which can still sell petrol for those of us with classic cars) but you will slot out your tired
battery pack and slot in a fully charger one and drive off again. They can recharge as and when it suits them both in practical and financial terms
i.e. early hours of the morning using low cost power. Us users simply lease the battery pack and pay monthly for the energy we use. Buy leasing you
also don't have to worry about replacing a worn out battery pack on a 6-7 year old car
We could still top-up the charge at home if we have the parking space/ charging point .
Battery pack density if currently doubling every 10 years so in 20+ years time a 300 mile range pack will be 1/4 the size of todays battery packs. All
very 'do-able' and in 20 years we have heaps of time to get it sorted!
Tyre manufactures are working on (and in some ares using) similar lease schemes so you no longer own your tyres but just pay a small fee per mile.
I am a techno geek and would LOVE to build an electric '7', the possible power available is staggering
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Going back to good old fashioned horse powered transport may be the way as they must be carbon neutral but burning them as fuel would probably smell a lot and their quite bulky so some sort of big blender may be required
I once poured chicken fat into a fire and it went up like petrol
Private Eye used to regularly bring in reports from around the world revealing snippets of news from
Far flung places and I remember some party in the Far East where a suckling pig being roasted exploded and maimed a load of people there's some energy in lard!!!
Atb
Mike
Mr Whippy - 27/7/17 at 01:59 PMquote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
Super capacitors are being developed already . Once that happens properly . Bye bye petrol/diesel.
looking at those on the web the tech seems to be already here and seem much better than batteries, quite interesting
peter030371 - 27/7/17 at 02:24 PMquote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
Super capacitors are being developed already . Once that happens properly . Bye bye petrol/diesel.
looking at those on the web the tech seems to be already here and seem much better than batteries, quite interesting
To the average man on the street a supercapacitor and a rechargeable battery are the same thing. They are still a source of (electrical) energy but without the nasty lithium stuff that tends to cause a few problems when it gets a little smokey
Maybe we should all just refer to them as Accumulators which is what they all are anyway
David Jenkins - 27/7/17 at 02:44 PMMaybe this is the way we'll go... Hydrogen powering cars via fuel cells.
Basically, it's hydrogen created using a local wind turbine (or similar green technology). It also explains the thinking behind the Toyota Prius, which I've always thought of as a "meh" car. I like the idea that the Mirai can power your house in the event of a power cut (but not yet in the UK). Clearly other manufacturers are watching this technology, as there were several big names at this presentation. The big bonus is that you could fill an "empty" car in just a couple of minutes, instead of plugging in an electric car and waiting anything from 30 minutes to several hours.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd have an electric car tomorrow (even if the electricity came from a hydrogen fuel cell). Apart from the very occasional long journey, even current cars would easily fit my lifestyle. As for this technology - I view it as "very interesting, but I'll wait and see".
But coming back to the original post - I doubt that any home car maker could meet the regulations for keeping battery packs or fuel cells safe. They can be dangerous in a crash (look at Richard Hammond's recent accident) so the chances of an amateur builder making a safe vehicle are slim to non-existent.
gremlin1234 - 27/7/17 at 03:15 PMquote:I suspect there will be a modular system for these components, in the same way as we use an engine module, and a gearbox module at the moment.
Originally posted by David Jenkins
But coming back to the original post - I doubt that any home car maker could meet the regulations for keeping battery packs or fuel cells safe. They can be dangerous in a crash (look at Richard Hammond's recent accident) so the chances of an amateur builder making a safe vehicle are slim to non-existent.
David Jenkins - 27/7/17 at 03:42 PMJust thinking... no-one is talking about the other great polluter, which affects petrol, diesel and electric cars equally - tyres. The process of making them is incredibly polluting, and they're a PITA to get rid of once they've worn out. Not sure what the answer is.
As I said - just a random thought.
David Jenkins - 27/7/17 at 03:59 PMquote:I suspect there will be a modular system for these components, in the same way as we use an engine module, and a gearbox module at the moment.
Originally posted by gremlin1234
(an exaggeration, but you know what I mean).
Interesting link if you would like to see how much electricity is being used and where its coming form
National Grid
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
20 years time, the scrappies will be full of tesla S100D's/BMW i8's. So we'll have 400bhp kitcars that are charged by a solar panel on the roof.
What's not to like
The sound of a burbling v8.
quote:
Originally posted by chillis
It must be remembered that we have grown up in an age where the expectation of being able to travel anywhere and at anytime is seen as a right ...
There's a video on YouTube of a Tesla model X beating an Alfa 4c in a drag race - whilst towing an alfa 4c on a trailer behind it. The future is electric.
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
There's a video on YouTube of a Tesla model X beating an Alfa 4c in a drag race - whilst towing an alfa 4c on a trailer behind it. The future is electric.
You do, and they're warranted for 8 years.
I wouldn't worry too much, there's plenty of generating capacity in renewables if we bother to harness it. Battery tech will become plenty good enough by 2040. Trucks would be much better if they were electric. 4wd electric home-built cars will be fun, they'll just require a different skill-set, which will be much more widespread by then anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
I wouldn't worry too much, .
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
I don't think we'll be colonising any other planets in volume anytime soon
would be good if they fitted charging pads into the road at know areas where traffic builds up or have them all along the road charging as you
go...
I don't see anything about LPG being banned, that may be a better alternative for the older cars to run as most can do so. I think petrol would
be come quite sparse to find and hiked right up in price due lack of demand.
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
You do, and they're warranted for 8 years.
quote:
Simple solution to a lot of the problems of recharging......user replaceable battery packs/ trays call it what you will. I am 99.9% sure its already been thought of and is being worked on (if not its my idea and I claim £0.01 per pack built in future)
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
You do, and they're warranted for 8 years.
hmm but that's the problem, they need replacing after 8 years so who's going to buy your car if it's only got a year or so left on a pack life? they know there is a huge expense coming up so folk would either not touch it or want a big discount to cover the cost of the new one, so in effect you have to pay for that too even though your selling it on.
It's a bit like trying to sell a petrol car that has only 10k left on it's engine and then needs a whole new one installed. I mind Rolls Royce had this problem with the Silver Shadow, that it actually was meant to have a full engine rebuild at 100k so there were loads at bargain prices just below that mileage available cos no one wanted to touch them.
Consider the kit car system as an ecosystem. Change in biological systems initiates a period of rapid evolution before things reach a new happy/stable
level. The same things happen in more artificial systems like motorsport eg F1 rule changes. This change will eventually force change for the amateur
builders. I really look forward to seeing the rapid level of development and hope I'm in a position to have a crack at it myself with what would
be my second 4x4 build.
There is apprehension about handling the storage and delivery of the electrical energy but storing 60l+ of highly volatile fluid isn't trivial
and formula E have managed well so far, be it with a few battery overheating related go-slows.
built by a bloke in a shed - albeit in Switzerland - there is hope - maybe
electric car from
shed