Do you know you can timings?
I just trying to get an idea of how close to knock you might be (in theory) and how confident you can be with those figures - you might find it's actually fine on 97 petrol
[Edited on 31/8/2020 by mcerd1]
I've done about 100 miles on rebuilt engine on bike carbs, with race cams, ported inlet, lightened flywheel, 1.4 to 1.6L conversion using
different rods n pistons. Shallow sump with shortened oil pick up and racing baffle plate. so its kinda of tuned alot for a n/a
I have gone to round 4000 rpm on 2nd gear. I am using a default tuning map with megajolt.
It runs spot on. I'm using a KS3 Phormula knock sensor and everything seems fine up the 4000 rpm I have taken it.
My question is; Can I tune it using a KS3 knock sensor and some sort fo timing light?
I have always wondered how do they hear for knock on the rolling road when it is very noise?
I was at a rolling road once and it seems to me they were tuning it to AFR , so they kept advancing it and keeping an eye on AFR.
Maybe from thier experience they are able to know from AFR when to stop advancing.
There is no way anyone can hear for pinging. It is so loud in there lol
No wonder DIY tuned engines pop on rolling road.
I think it would be safer for me to use a knock sensor. Atleast you can avoid damage.
whats the compression ratio of you engine now ?
(static or dynamic)
and what fuel are you running it on ?
unless you've gone crazy knock shouldn't be that big a problem for an NA engine....
[Edited on 31/8/2020 by mcerd1]
11.5
v-ron 99 top stuff
I assume that's static CR ?
Have you calculatd the dynamic CR?
Dynamic CR allows for the valve timing - so is more reivant to how it'll behave (long duration cams mean the valves are still open for quite a
bit of the piston stroke)
[Edited on 31/8/2020 by mcerd1]
If anywhere is safer for tuning it is the rolling road, where you can easily monitor AFR, knock and look for the associated torque dips from knock.
Regardless, in both places any decent tuner will be listening for knock either either electronically or via old school det cans.
And you shouldn't be tuning by advancing as far as possible until knock, as peak torque occurs before knock generally.
Having road tuned a highly strung 2 litre turbo, I'd much rather have had the controlled environment of an RR but wanted to learn the process
myself.
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
If anywhere is safer for tuning it is the rolling road, where you can easily monitor AFR, knock and look for the associated torque dips from knock.
Regardless, in both places any decent tuner will be listening for knock either either electronically or via old school det cans.
And you shouldn't be tuning by advancing as far as possible until knock, as peak torque occurs before knock generally.
Having road tuned a highly strung 2 litre turbo, I'd much rather have had the controlled environment of an RR but wanted to learn the process myself.
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
I assume that's static CR ?
Have you calculatd the dynamic CR?
Dynamic CR allows for the valve timing - so is more reivant to how it'll behave (long duration cams mean the valves are still open for quite a bit of the piston stroke)
[Edited on 31/8/2020 by mcerd1]
How did you calculate that 11.5 CR / did you measure the volume of the combustion chambers?
Do you know you can timings?
I just trying to get an idea of how close to knock you might be (in theory) and how confident you can be with those figures - you might find it's
actually fine on 97 petrol
[Edited on 31/8/2020 by mcerd1]
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
Thanks for replying so quick. No one stands close enough on rolling roads to listen for pinging. thier all stand at monitor measuing AFR.
I have such an accurate AFR unit and also a a very sensitive accurate knock sensor. So AFR would not be a problem at all.
hmm suppose the only thing can't simulator is load. wonder how much load those rollers put on a cars wheels..
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
Thanks for replying so quick. No one stands close enough on rolling roads to listen for pinging. thier all stand at monitor measuing AFR.
I have such an accurate AFR unit and also a a very sensitive accurate knock sensor. So AFR would not be a problem at all.
hmm suppose the only thing can't simulator is load. wonder how much load those rollers put on a cars wheels..
They're not listening by ear, they're watching for knock feedback from either your ECU or a bolt on knock sensor.
On the road you absolutely cannot replicate the loads the same way a rolling road can. You cannot tune steady state, only dynamically as you pass through cells, and that means any tune incorrectly incorporates both static and dynamic effects into a static map and leaves you botching the solution when the dynamic effects change at lower rates of RPM increase and high load scenarios.
Do you think OEMs and pro tuners are all wasting their time buying hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of engine and chassis dyno because they can't hear knock by ear? 😊
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
How did you calculate that 11.5 CR / did you measure the volume of the combustion chambers?
Do you know you can timings?
I just trying to get an idea of how close to knock you might be (in theory) and how confident you can be with those figures - you might find it's actually fine on 97 petrol
[Edited on 31/8/2020 by mcerd1]
Oh absolutely experience and skill is a huge part of it and not all will do it well. Or with the right tools. That's why it's best to go by recommendation. My point was just that fundamentally it's better on the dyno rather than the road. But sure you *can * do it on the road if you have a capable driver and can do the tuning yourself from the passenger seat, but it's really hard to find safe ways of doing it and I personally spent more in fuel doing it than I would have spent on a professional. But I like learning and was prepared to risk engine damage to learn the process.
Northampton motorsport attach a knock sensor and have ear defenders with speakers in to hear the knock
I can't recall ATSpeed attaching a knock sensor to my car when I recently had a RR remap with them, that does not mean they didn't do it
though.
They did pick up knock though. They moaned at me for filling the car with 95RON. We drained it all out and put some 99RON in. I did wonder at the time
what was going on, the car did not sound happy, he then stopped and asked what fuel was in it.
This was evident when they were doing lower RPM cruising stuff IIRC. The rollers created drag and demand for motorway cruising and they mapped to
that.
They were very thorough, mapping different loads and TPS with the complete rev range. It took ages and would be impossible on the road.
A very expensive day but I think worth it for a once in a car engine's life.
As said, it's not easy doing it yourself but it can be done. A good wideband afr, knock and data logging tps/map/rpm etc, and even careful use of
the handbrake/left foot braking to load the engine can be useful!. Listen to the engine, if it doesn't sound/feel right it probably isn't
right.
Even a good rolling road session will seldom get the cold starting/warm up maps correct so being comfortable tweaking those is well worth the effort
any way even if you get the main mapping done on a rolling road/dyno.
Ian
That's what i really like about this site.
Huge amounts of acquired knowledge generously shared without any back-biting or acrimony.
Keep it up lads,
Cheers, Pewe 
get it on the rollers and do it properlly! Tried road tuning before, dont bother!
if you want experience, then go to Northampton Motorsport. Not the cheapest you will find a rolling road for, but compared to the previous company i
used, you get what you pay for!! Troy is a top tuner and transformed my car on itb's
quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
I can't recall ATSpeed attaching a knock sensor to my car when I recently had a RR remap with them, that does not mean they didn't do it though.
They did pick up knock though. They moaned at me for filling the car with 95RON. We drained it all out and put some 99RON in. I did wonder at the time what was going on, the car did not sound happy, he then stopped and asked what fuel was in it.
This was evident when they were doing lower RPM cruising stuff IIRC. The rollers created drag and demand for motorway cruising and they mapped to that.
They were very thorough, mapping different loads and TPS with the complete rev range. It took ages and would be impossible on the road.
A very expensive day but I think worth it for a once in a car engine's life.
quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
I can't recall ATSpeed attaching a knock sensor to my car when I recently had a RR remap with them, that does not mean they didn't do it though.
They did pick up knock though. They moaned at me for filling the car with 95RON. We drained it all out and put some 99RON in. I did wonder at the time what was going on, the car did not sound happy, he then stopped and asked what fuel was in it.
This was evident when they were doing lower RPM cruising stuff IIRC. The rollers created drag and demand for motorway cruising and they mapped to that.
They were very thorough, mapping different loads and TPS with the complete rev range. It took ages and would be impossible on the road.
A very expensive day but I think worth it for a once in a car engine's life.
A compression ratio of 11.5 would probably caused problems with 101 octane fuel when that was available ?
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
There you go. This was my point all along.
They did not plug a lead in. GOT KNOCK
and blamed 95 ron. (Edited swear word out) everywhere. Who can you trust? lol
a bit OTT for an old
iron lump ) sorry i forgot to mention it would be a gti 6n2 equivilant engine which is 11.5CR
better do some homework on dynamic CR
anyone know any rolling road near sheffield, doncaster who would work with megajolt?
I would try Chris @efi-parts in Runcorn. Can't say enough good things about him and well known and respected.
https://efi-parts.co.uk/rolling-road/
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
anyone know any rolling road near sheffield, doncaster who would work with megajolt?
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
I can't recall ATSpeed attaching a knock sensor to my car when I recently had a RR remap with them, that does not mean they didn't do it though.
They did pick up knock though. They moaned at me for filling the car with 95RON. We drained it all out and put some 99RON in. I did wonder at the time what was going on, the car did not sound happy, he then stopped and asked what fuel was in it.
This was evident when they were doing lower RPM cruising stuff IIRC. The rollers created drag and demand for motorway cruising and they mapped to that.
They were very thorough, mapping different loads and TPS with the complete rev range. It took ages and would be impossible on the road.
A very expensive day but I think worth it for a once in a car engine's life.
There you go. This was my point all along.
They did not plug a lead in. GOT KNOCK
and blamed 95 ron. (Edited swear word out) everywhere. Who can you trust? lol
[Edited on 2/9/20 by bikecarbfred]
quote:
Originally posted by ttalps2000
get it on the rollers and do it properlly! Tried road tuning before, dont bother!
if you want experience, then go to Northampton Motorsport. Not the cheapest you will find a rolling road for, but compared to the previous company i used, you get what you pay for!! Troy is a top tuner and transformed my car on itb's
quote:
Originally posted by perksy
quote:
Originally posted by ttalps2000
get it on the rollers and do it properlly! Tried road tuning before, dont bother!
if you want experience, then go to Northampton Motorsport. Not the cheapest you will find a rolling road for, but compared to the previous company i used, you get what you pay for!! Troy is a top tuner and transformed my car on itb's
Agreed
Troy finished mine off on the road with his laptop on his knees and then the bonnet starting to lift off