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RANT : Raising taxes to raise more money to pay of debt???
MK9R - 10/12/09 at 07:37 AM

I'm not moaning about raising NI to increase revenue to pay of the national debt (even though i work for myself and this will hit me twice as hard as a standard employee), but shouldn't the main drive be for the government to stop wasting money first!!! Then to add insult our beloved Darling decides to waste the extra money they are raising by tax increases to increase the benifit system!!! Why the F*ck should the people who work be worse off in these tight economic times, but the people who put nothing in should be better off!!!!

Get these jokers out!!!

turbodisplay - 10/12/09 at 08:08 AM

I think they think these are the only people who vote for them.
The flaw is the people who don`t want to work are also too lazy to vote.
The people who are genually are enemployed will blame them for loosing their job and not vote for them.
Darren

GMPMotorsport - 10/12/09 at 08:21 AM

Our chance to get rid of these idiots will come in May, lets hope people put their cross where it matters! Good to see we can still give billions to countries less fortunate than us!!

locostbuyer83 - 10/12/09 at 08:27 AM

Because our benifit system is so good, many people feel they are better off on benifits than going to work. I think they need to put a maximum time on how long you can have benifits and then when you return to work you should have to pay more tax to pay back your borrowed money. I have to pay back about £20k for my student loan, why shouldn't people have to pay back benifits!

stevec - 10/12/09 at 08:29 AM

I thought it was also interesting that they intend to put a windfall tax on bankers bonuses. So how it works is the bankers get a bonus payed with OUR money then the tax man takes OUR money off them. But dosn't give it back to us.

Badger_McLetcher - 10/12/09 at 08:30 AM

Problem is, you get rid of one bunch of idiots to put another bunch in. In ten years time it'll be the same story, always is.

Badger_McLetcher - 10/12/09 at 08:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by locostbuyer83
Because our benifit system is so good, many people feel they are better off on benifits than going to work. I think they need to put a maximum time on how long you can have benifits and then when you return to work you should have to pay more tax to pay back your borrowed money. I have to pay back about £20k for my student loan, why shouldn't people have to pay back benifits!

One of my old school mates was in a bit of a quandry a couple of years back. He really wanted to work, but nothing could give him the hours (and therefore money) that living off benefits at the time could. When you're looking after two little'uns as well, in reality you've got to put them first.
Luckilly for him it didn't last long and he got a decent job.
Just a semi reminder not everything is black and white

MK9R - 10/12/09 at 08:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by stevec
I thought it was also interesting that they intend to put a windfall tax on bankers bonuses. So how it works is the bankers get a bonus payed with OUR money then the tax man takes OUR money off them. But dosn't give it back to us.


All bonus payouts should be banned and the 1.5bn they were going to pay out go back to pay the loan off they were given in the first place!!!!

The benefit system gives people too much and there is no incentive to work, why go to work when you can get 40k a year in benefits????

hughpinder - 10/12/09 at 08:53 AM

I like the one about taxing the bankers bonus's on a 'one year only' basis. If I was a banker I'd just say "OK, pay me my end of year bonus on day one of the next year instead" - extra tax (maybe) avoided! Since they're in the financial business and should be expert in reducing their taxes, I wouldn't be surprised to find the government end up p*****g off a load of bankers for not much actual money coming in.

Hugh

tegwin - 10/12/09 at 09:13 AM

Bankers will figure out how to acoid this "tax".... simply by increasing their pay probably..


Its not just benefits that persuade people not to work.... This goverment/country give no incentives to do WELL.....which is the big flaw

Findlay234 - 10/12/09 at 09:36 AM

I think one of the major problems in this country is that no one has made up their mind what we do any more. Were past the majority of our industrial revolution, weve given up on any form of a real space industry and 'almost' any other form of high tech (largely because science grants are dwindling due to higher weight of the benefit system, and due to higher taxes, higher taxes = higher costs for everything = higher wages demanded = companies having to outsource ability from other parts of the world) so weve kind of decided that the economy would be one based on financial services to the rest of the world. Ok so it hasnt worked out because of a lack of regulation and general greediness all round (not just bankers here, everyone wants the fancy car on credit the fancy house on credit(read mortgage) etc etc) but now we want to tax the financial institutions and the people who work for them just to make sure that they go to other countries.

This country has a knack of taxing those things that may well be benefitial to them. There are places in the world that create tax breaks for the type of people and type of industries that they want.

I will say one thing though, we are not the only ones and for all the economic mistakes this country makes there arent many places in the world that are actually that much better....

All my own opinion of course

Cheers

smart51 - 10/12/09 at 09:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by stevec
So how it works is the bankers get a bonus payed with OUR money then the tax man takes OUR money off them. But dosn't give it back to us.


What do you mean "doesn't give it back to us"? Money into the treasury is spent on the NHS and Schools and fire engines and things. If the banker's bonuses weren't taxed to raise the money, we would be.

big-vee-twin - 10/12/09 at 09:40 AM

Dont forget what it was like under Thatcher, Its because of her that we no longer have much manufacturing industry and we are an economy based upon banking and greed.

smart51 - 10/12/09 at 09:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Problem is, you get rid of one bunch of idiots to put another bunch in. In ten years time it'll be the same story, always is.


You remember the end of the last Tory government too then? Two terms each seems to be the limit.

splitrivet - 10/12/09 at 09:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Dont forget what it was like under Thatcher, Its because of her that we no longer have much manufacturing industry and we are an economy based upon banking and greed.


Hear hear, the womans still looked on by some as a hero but she single handedly ruined this country and its future.
Cheers,
Bob

02GF74 - 10/12/09 at 09:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Dont forget what it was like under Thatcher, Its because of her that we no longer have much manufacturing industry and we are an economy based upon banking and greed.


Is that so?

So Rover went down the pan becasue of Tahtcher and not because we in UK chose to buy cars made by other manufacturers?

And would you be happy to be taxed 2 or 3 times what you are now to bail out the manufacturing, steel and coal industries?

If only it were that simple.

It may be a oversimplification but the reason why that has happened is because we buy what is cheapest and that usually is stuff made by Chinese orphans.

nick205 - 10/12/09 at 09:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Problem is, you get rid of one bunch of idiots to put another bunch in. In ten years time it'll be the same story, always is.



Nail, head, hit - hard

The trouble is now we're all so focused on this government's inadequacies (sp?) and raring to vote them out we're forgetting that how bad/indifferent the alternatives are.

IMHO this country has had it too mediocre for too long which has bred a widely apathetic population and a politcal spectrum so weak it's frightening.

I'm not saying we need a civil war, but the country certainly needs a grab by the nuts and good squeeze.

Breaker - 10/12/09 at 10:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MK9R
I'm not moaning about raising NI to increase revenue to pay of the national debt (even though i work for myself and this will hit me twice as hard as a standard employee), but shouldn't the main drive be for the government to stop wasting money first!!! Then to add insult our beloved Darling decides to waste the extra money they are raising by tax increases to increase the benifit system!!! Why the F*ck should the people who work be worse off in these tight economic times, but the people who put nothing in should be better off!!!!

Get these jokers out!!!


You're not alone in this. In my country we're dealing with the same sh*t.

andyd - 10/12/09 at 10:26 AM

Politicians should be paid a wage to do a job. Bankers should be paid a wage to do a job. I'm all for bonuses (my job pays a quarterly bonus) but only if the company can afford it. If the money isn't there it doesn't get paid out. Just because a company is wholly or partially publicly owned doesn't mean they should be able to pay bonuses (or expenses) from what is essentially our money.

There are other European countries that have higher taxes than the UK but the difference is their government appear to use that money better. Might be just an illusion though... maybe they are skimming the system too.

As for tax breaks... we all get tax breaks in some form or another. If you don't earn much you don't pay much tax (if any). I agree there's a fine line between working and claiming benefit for some people and more should be done to encourage (if not force) people to work. If the jobs aren't there though people can't work. I'm lucky enough to work in I.T. so jobs aren't quite so difficult to get hold off/keep. The previous post about the UK not knowing what we do anymore is right though. We don't really manufacturer anything anymore and don't have natural resources to plunder either.

Oh well, never mind eh guys (and gals)... we could all be wiped out by an asteroid tomorrow. Lets just hug a tree and be thankful we're alive!

Toprivetguns - 10/12/09 at 11:01 AM

Just to add we the public and our taxes are funding the car scrappage allowance. Basically I contributed to my neighbours brand new car. At least im doing my bit for the planet

02GF74 - 10/12/09 at 11:20 AM

there is some seriously incompetant household management here on a grand scale.

for this year, the government borrowed 178 BILLION pounds so where is this money going??? (that is on top of tax money they get) works out at about £3,000 for every person in UK or quite a few duck houses.


it makes you wonder.

flak monkey - 10/12/09 at 11:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
The trouble is now we're all so focused on this government's inadequacies (sp?) and raring to vote them out we're forgetting that how bad/indifferent the alternatives are.

IMHO this country has had it too mediocre for too long which has bred a widely apathetic population and a politcal spectrum so weak it's frightening.

I'm not saying we need a civil war, but the country certainly needs a grab by the nuts and good squeeze.


Agreed.

People forget how bad the country was under the Torys as well. The recession was then much worse, unempolyment higher and the root cause of the recession solely due to government mistakes and poor decisions rather than bankers greed and exploitation of the system.

I am willing to bet a fairly large sum of money that if the Torys come to power, interest rates will shoot up (bad for those with mortgages - which is the vast majority of people) and taxes will be further increased and those who will be worse off will be you and me whilst they look after their own (basically people with lots of money). I wonder if they will scrap the incentives for apprentices and vocational training AGAIN, just like they did last time...and further destroy our manufacturing/engineering businesses. And that there will be another recession in 15 years time, worse than the one we have just had.

The country does need a change and I very much doubt its going to get one for the better any time soon, other than a change of face of the primeminister.

Until a party gets into power who stops the 'nanny state' meddling and making it easier for people on benefits etc etc then nothing much will change.

There is a lot of apathy in the UK at the moment (shown solely by the lousy turn out come voting time). I honestly dont see myself still in the UK past the age of 30 (another 5 years). I will take my skills to a country that values them and respects engineering and sciences.

David

woodster - 10/12/09 at 11:31 AM

my 10p worth ....... those bankers who are now being blamed for all of this mess are the same bankers that Mr Brown use to praise so highly for generating so much wealth for this country the same bankers that paid huge ammounts of tax back into the system the same bankers mr brown use to banquet with at the city dinners laughing and quaffing champagne ....... like it or not the same bankers that will again generate billions of pounds for this country

[Edited on 10/12/09 by woodster]

Steve G - 10/12/09 at 11:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by stevec
I thought it was also interesting that they intend to put a windfall tax on bankers bonuses. So how it works is the bankers get a bonus payed with OUR money then the tax man takes OUR money off them. But dosn't give it back to us.


Personally i'm against this "one off levy" on banker's bonuses. Its not just the staff of banks with majority public ownership or those that have had government bail-outs that are having to pay it on what is generally a contractual part of their salary.

I'm all for a fair tax system so how is it fair to tax one profession like this?? There's plenty of professions paying huge bonuses in the private sector so why should the banking profession be the only ones to be penalised like this?

[Edited on 10/12/09 by Steve G]

MK9R - 10/12/09 at 12:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
The trouble is now we're all so focused on this government's inadequacies (sp?) and raring to vote them out we're forgetting that how bad/indifferent the alternatives are.

IMHO this country has had it too mediocre for too long which has bred a widely apathetic population and a politcal spectrum so weak it's frightening.

I'm not saying we need a civil war, but the country certainly needs a grab by the nuts and good squeeze.


Agreed.

People forget how bad the country was under the Torys as well. The recession was then much worse, unempolyment higher and the root cause of the recession solely due to government mistakes and poor decisions rather than bankers greed and exploitation of the system.

I am willing to bet a fairly large sum of money that if the Torys come to power, interest rates will shoot up (bad for those with mortgages - which is the vast majority of people) and taxes will be further increased and those who will be worse off will be you and me whilst they look after their own (basically people with lots of money). I wonder if they will scrap the incentives for apprentices and vocational training AGAIN, just like they did last time...and further destroy our manufacturing/engineering businesses. And that there will be another recession in 15 years time, worse than the one we have just had.

The country does need a change and I very much doubt its going to get one for the better any time soon, other than a change of face of the primeminister.

Until a party gets into power who stops the 'nanny state' meddling and making it easier for people on benefits etc etc then nothing much will change.

There is a lot of apathy in the UK at the moment (shown solely by the lousy turn out come voting time). I honestly dont see myself still in the UK past the age of 30 (another 5 years). I will take my skills to a country that values them and respects engineering and sciences.

David


Bank of England control interest rates, not the government, so doesn't really matter who wins the election on that count. Well i suppose they do effect it depending on the incompetence level!

smart51 - 10/12/09 at 12:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey

People forget how bad the country was under the Torys ...

I am willing to bet a fairly large sum of money that if the Torys come to power, interest rates will shoot up (bad for those with mortgages - which is the vast majority of people) and taxes will be further increased ...


Torys cut spending first and set taxes to suit. Don't expect more tax rises from them.

If you don't like Labour or Conservative, remember you have a 3rd choice. According to the BBC Nick Clegg talks a lot of sense and Vince Cable has an annoying habit of being right.

Badger_McLetcher - 10/12/09 at 01:34 PM

To be fair people always criticise the lib dems for having no experience, maybe that's what you need for a change!
I wouldn't hope they'd be any different though, it all ends up the same.
The problem is most of the time governments don't like putting long term plans in place... just in case they lose the next election and it comes to fruition in the oppositions term. Very short sighted.

spaximus - 10/12/09 at 01:41 PM

There is a simple fundemental differance between the two main parties. Labour belive in taxing everyone especially those who are high acheivers and hence highe earners, and then spending the tax to reward people who will not work or knock kids out etc etc. Conservatives belive in lower taxes and lower benefits and spending. That is your easy choice. Since the Labour party was begun every time they have been in power they have left office with the economy in taters. The tories then put it right by austerity measures which are unpopular with the population. As soon as the economy picks up Labour gets back in and screws all the good work up. The civil servcie under labour has grown by over 150000 people, have you seen any differance?
Now they have taken to using the polotics of envy again with high earners but if you are a high earner for every £1000 you earn the goverment get £400 income tax, £180 NI, if you spend any of the money another 17.5% Vat on what you have left so that is another £73. As always it is the top earners and "middle England" who pay the most and get the least back. As for the Liberals, they can say anything but before labour was born, there was Liberals and Tories. The liberals at that time made the tories look like a benelovant bunch, which is why they were consigned to an irritation. As for Thatcher, she was not perfect but she certainly cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong when she left office years ago.

motorcycle_mayhem - 10/12/09 at 01:56 PM

Shame we can't have the sanity of Vince Cable at the helm.

Anyway, yep, I'm a dinosaur now - one of the ex-productive people that was in manufacturing, now very much out of the system. No kids, some savings, so no benefits. Anyway, sorry, I digress.

I heard an interesting slant on the 'troubles' yesterday from Blanchflower. From his perspective, we're in so much debt because the shrinking private sector (of which I was a contributor before my employer went under), is 100% to blame because it isn't producing enough revenue to balance the burgeoning public sector.... hmmm.... must not throw bent conrods at the TV when things are reported on the BBC (government news/propaganda channel).

I'm sure Brown will be sending the Thought Police around at some stage, I need lots of 're-education' and 'realignment' right now. Probably a Fine too....

bigpig - 23/12/09 at 07:14 PM

Findlay234 pretty much summed up the problem. We sold off our infrastructure during the Thatcher eara, stupid unions destroyed BL as some sort of points scoring exersize regardless of the impact on the workers, organisations off shored jobs where ever possible in the quest for profit over every thing else.

The attempt to turn the country into a knowledge based industry was foolish and arrogant, assuming the rest of the world is too thick to understand managment and design.

We are left with the main jobs being bankers, upper/middle managment and supermarket shelf fillters (most checkout staff will probably be gone in 10 years).

The change in VAT for organisations with off shore operating units will change this all a bit, but it could swing to banks and the like moving abroad and just having small outlets in the UK.

The traders that made the money unforunatly wernt the same as the ones who lost it, then were the silly ones who thought they could copy the clever traders but just pushing their luck futher and futher with more risky bets and loans. Sadly quite a few non commerical organisations got in on the act and lost huge amounts investing badly (e.g. Icelandic banking).

You can just, as a country, make money by speculating on the stock exhange, you need to make things to trade else its just numbers in a computer, that's one thing we don't seem to do much of any more.

Ninehigh - 23/12/09 at 10:02 PM

Vote for us!

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that what we need is a viable alternative, as Einstein said "The level of thinking that caused the problems will not get us out of them" (or something to that effect. So who's the viable alternative? Us, Joe Public! We're not all stupid, and tbh is not being a politician that much of a hinderance? Heck that could work for us

Seriously could a bunch of complete amatuers do a much worse job?