mastercobbler
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:19 PM |
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i like the idea of a sequential gear shift
hi guys still looking for inspiration, iwatched a couple of videos on youtube and i like the idea of a sequential gear change,but reading about
BEC's i find all the talk about, baffled sumps and rods through block if oil starvation occurs, a bit worrying, could you do sequential change
with "ordinary" car engine, apologies if this sounds dumb but as my mum said "if you dont,ask you dont get"
cheers john
[Edited on 3/2/09 by mastercobbler]
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cloudy
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:22 PM |
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CEC's go wrong too, but there's normally other avenues to research the problems - bike engine's tend to get talked about more
because of the unique problems we encounter with mounting them 90 degrees rotated...
That said BEC's will always been more highly strung - but if we wanted a reliable motor i'd just use my tin top 
James
www.warnercars.com
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jlparsons
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:22 PM |
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Saw an article in TKC about the gearbox in the westfield 2000 sport and the company that built it, it's a customer made sequential. I forget
the name of the company who made it. You can get them, but you're looking at a few thousand quid, plus i hear they need a lot more attention
than a BEC/CEC box.
Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during
shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Subject to
approval, terms and conditions apply. Apply only to affected area. For recreational use only. All models over 18 years of age. No user-serviceable
parts inside. Subject to change. As seen on TV. One size fits all. May contain nuts. Slippery when wet. For office use only. Edited for television.
Keep cool; process promptly.
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oldtimer
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:23 PM |
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Not a silly question at all, just go to the quaife site and check them out, but they are so wallet shredding that very few go for them.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:25 PM |
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Quaife make a 6 speed sequential type 9 box. Burton power sell them, but you can probably get them cheaper.
BGH make the boxes for caterham.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:25 PM |
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Just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC, last about 5 times longer and have a reverse as standard.
Many come with different modes like sports or snow and have only 2 pedals to squeeze in. This country is well behind the Americans as far as that side
of things are concerned, why anyone wants to manually change gears & slip clutches is very odd. My cars that have manual boxs are only that way
cos I can't get autos for them 
[Edited on 3/2/09 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Guinness
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:25 PM |
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Have a look on the Burton Power website at the Quaife sequential gearboxes that replace a type 9. They go for between £4 and £6 grand!
Could buy and break a lot of bike engines for that much!
Go BEC, get the install right and you won't have any problems (says the man who killed two engines with oil starvation problems (but then it was
a learning curve as not many people had put the ZZR in their cars at that point))!
Cheers
Mike
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC, last about 5 times longer and have a reverse as standard
....and with some tinkering most autos can be bodged to give all gears in reverse
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC
Bet there not, clutchless upshift in a bec is pretty dam quick, plus you can choose when to change gear rather than have the car think about when it
wants to.
Oil starvation only affects certain engines, the more popular BEC choices are far more reliable - old blades for example are pretty bullet proof by
all accounts.
Obviously sometimes a rod might burst through the block, but I very much doubt there is a CEC engine model which has never had a problem.
At the end of the day, high performance engines will always be high maintainance. But you pays your money, you makes your choice.
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mr henderson
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC, last about 5 times longer and have a reverse as standard
Makes a lot of sense. There's a firm in South Africa that make an electronic controller for modern auto boxes that can be programmed or used to
make manual selection.
Manual gearboxes are just so yesterday's technology, it's just a lot of people don't realise it yet. I am reliably informed there
are still tin tops being purchased with manual gearboxes! Are the customers mad? Do they actually like having to constantly change gear and work the
clutch whether they want to or not?
Manuals should be made illegal, if it's not legal to eat a sandwich while driving I don't see how it can be legal to change gear.
John
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:36 PM |
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Actually flooring it a good autobox is never out of gear, it’s simply slipping the clutch plates as it changes from one gear to the other so the car
doesn’t stop accelerating or the engine driving the car forward. In that way it’s really not taking any time to change gear since not once is the
drive disconnected unlike a BEC.
[Edited on 3/2/09 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:40 PM |
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As mentioned above in various posts, a sequential box for a car engine is seriously expensive.
Dont be worried about all the talk of baffled sumps etc. Everyone on this site will no doubt agree that building a car (be it bike or car engined) is
a great learning experience and you will wonder in a year or so's time what you were worried about. Look upon it as a chance to learn something
new - research anything that you dont understand on here and the wider internet etc, and your build will be all the more enjoyable for it.
Lets say you go for a car engine - how much do you currently know about shallow sumps, lightened flywheels, multi-carb setups and aftemarket mappable
ECU's?? Either way you will have a lot to learn, so if you fancy a BEC with sequential change then go for a BEC (just do all the research first
- and go for a ride out in one if you can).
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procomp
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:41 PM |
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Hi
The gearbox that was mentioned in a westfield was probably the ELITE . However they have proved to
be somewhat unreliable over the last two years. The best option by far is still the Quaife 6 speed sequential version. I am currently just finishing
installing one of these in to a Westfield for a customer up against a Duratec engine.
All in all it is a relatively straight foward conversion ( straight swap for a type 9 supposedly ) but it dose not seem to be a straight swap as we
have had to make a spacer and other mods also. However once installed it is a joy to work smooth operation and no chance of selecting neutral or
reverse by accident as the lift collar works well. As said though very expensive new as you can buy a 6 speed sequential Hewland for less. And theres
not many going for sale second hand.
Cheers Matt
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BenB
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:42 PM |
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Of course you can just fit a bike engine that is in the car the way the manafacturer intended in the bike (IE isn't 90 degrees out of
alignment)....
like a ST1100
Doesn't need a dry sump either unless you want to run crazily low ride height levels (like I do, hence I'm dry sumping it  )....
Only 5 sequential gears though....
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sucksqueezebangblow
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 02:54 PM |
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You could take a look at these;
Elite Racing Transmissions Link
Better to Burnout than to Fade Away JET METAL ~ AndySparrow © 
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richardlee237
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 03:00 PM |
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I am sure I can remember Prodrive fitting a controller to a conventional "gated" box to give sequential gear changes. I beleive it was
when Subaru first started rallying.
When the sequential unit failed they were able to revert to conventional gear changes.
Can't be too difficult with a couple of solenoids and a bit of logic.
[Edited on 3/2/09 by richardlee237]
Quote Lord Kelvin
“Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in race horses and women.”
Quote Richard Lee
"and cars"
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Humbug
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 03:21 PM |
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Joao Caldeira is apparently make a sequential adapter for a Type 9 box:
here
Don't know anything about it or how much it is/will be
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procomp
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 03:25 PM |
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Hi
The thing you need to remember is that the proper sequential units are DOG boxes IE no syncros. Any of the conversions that just bolt on are using the
STD box with syncros. Which are the weak link on the boxes in the first place.
Cheers Matt
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 03:30 PM |
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^^^ learning to fit a baffle plate to a bike engine looks a whole lot easier for a beginner to learn!!
Wiring mods are about the hardest bit of a bike engine install in my experience, and thats just a case of following instructions available on the net.
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nick205
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 03:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC, last about 5 times longer and have a reverse as standard
Makes a lot of sense. There's a firm in South Africa that make an electronic controller for modern auto boxes that can be programmed or used to
make manual selection.
Manual gearboxes are just so yesterday's technology, it's just a lot of people don't realise it yet. I am reliably informed there
are still tin tops being purchased with manual gearboxes! Are the customers mad? Do they actually like having to constantly change gear and work the
clutch whether they want to or not?
Manuals should be made illegal, if it's not legal to eat a sandwich while driving I don't see how it can be legal to change gear.
John
Having driven several Audis with DSG boxes I find them great going up the box, but generally miss the lack of control coming down the box.
i.e. I like to drop the clutch, select a lower gear and then use the clutch to effect some engine breaking and then be in the right gear for
accelerating. Possibly more of a diesel driving thing, but I often select a higher gear (e.g. pull off in 2nd) and slip the clutch a bit to get a
longer pull in a particular gear too.
There's also something "right" about physically changing gear - one of those tactile elements of driving
I suspect as gearbox makers drive us forward we'll all end up with DSG type boxes tho'
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Delinquent
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 04:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC, last about 5 times longer and have a reverse as standard.
Many come with different modes like sports or snow and have only 2 pedals to squeeze in. This country is well behind the Americans as far as that side
of things are concerned, why anyone wants to manually change gears & slip clutches is very odd. My cars that have manual boxs are only that way
cos I can't get autos for them
[Edited on 3/2/09 by Mr Whippy]
If a wide selection of DSG boxes were widely available I'd agree wholeheartedly, but I get seriously hacked off with my current Audi auto as I
have every other auto I've driven - they seem to have an innate ability to chose the wrong gear at the wrong moment.
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 04:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
just use a rwd automatic car as the donor, their even faster at changing gear than a BEC, last about 5 times longer and have a reverse as standard
Makes a lot of sense. There's a firm in South Africa that make an electronic controller for modern auto boxes that can be programmed or used to
make manual selection.
Manual gearboxes are just so yesterday's technology, it's just a lot of people don't realise it yet. I am reliably informed
there are still tin tops being purchased with manual gearboxes! Are the customers mad? Do they actually like having to constantly change gear and work
the clutch whether they want to or not?
Manuals should be made illegal, if it's not legal to eat a sandwich while driving I don't see how it can be legal to change gear.
John
HAHAHA take a look around!!
cars as a whole are yesturdays technology! theres nothing new about a box full of petrol and crude engines that we drive around in, having to turn the
wheel ourselves, and take responsibility for where we go and how fast we get there.
rant over
will
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 04:24 PM |
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I've never driven a manual car that has changed gear mid corner to try to kill me whereas a particularly psychopathic Alfa auto that I once
drove hard did attempt to murder me!
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coozer
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 04:34 PM |
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GORDON BENNET!
Bike engines are easy to install...
Car engines are easy to install...
Sump baffles are easy to install...
Wiring's dead easy as well (for me)
Whats all the fuss about?
Bike engiens come with sequential and its very cool, but really is it such a big deal to have an H pattern?
The extra speed speed of a CEC surely makes up for the longer change time??
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 3/2/09 at 04:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
GORDON BENNET!
Bike engines are easy to install...
Car engines are easy to install...
Sump baffles are easy to install...
Wiring's dead easy as well (for me)
Whats all the fuss about?
They are all easy to me too - but i have 8 years experience and have built 3 cars.... helped with several others.
The OP is a beginner to all this with obvious concerns about building his first kit car and unknown experience so it'd be useful if this was
taken into account by everyone.
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