blakep82
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 03:56 PM |
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what makes a car suitable or not for veg oil?
I need to buy a car, and I want a diesel I can run on veg oil. Ideally I want it to be an 02 plate to try and aim for cheaper than 215 a year road
tax, and verrry cheap(probably the most difficult part)
I want something along the lines of ford, vauxhall, or preferably audi if I can get one cheap enough. And an estate too. I need a car, want a van,
this is somwhere in the middle.
How do I know if any of these are suitable? What do I need to be looking for, and can this be checked easily, as im planning on going to the auction
tomorrow for a look
[Edited on 26/1/13 by blakep82]
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don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 04:20 PM |
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Forget about any common rail diesels for a start. If you can find a car with an older Bosche or Lucas pump that would be better.
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hobbsy
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 04:23 PM |
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2001 Y plate is where co2 based tax started. If your looking at straight veg rather than bio diesel choices are v limited in that age range.
Skoda Octavia with the older 110bhp non PD VW TDI engine is your best bet. All the VW and Audi had changed to th non veg friendly engines by then.
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dlatch
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 04:41 PM |
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all the old clonkers will run on veg fine the engine in my citroen zx td is the only redeeming feature 
[Edited on 26/1/13 by dlatch]
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GeoffT
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 04:45 PM |
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There can be lots of issues running modern diesels on vegoil, basically pre 2000 indirect diesels running Bosch pumps are favourites, but that's
a bit of an oversimplification.
I suggest you have a good read on the vegoil forum here, all the information you need
is there.
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Slimy38
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 05:11 PM |
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I should mention that there have been a few news articles about police forces keeping an eye out for 'veggies'. It's a bit difficult
to hide the fact your car smells like a chippy! I don't know what the actual law that is being broken though, probably some tax evasion no
doubt?
I only know about VAG diesels and their refusal to work with veg oil, that's already been answered by Hobbsy. My mate reckons his 04 Mondeo TDCi
will be happy with veg oil?
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PSpirine
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 05:35 PM |
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As someone that's run cars on veg for a good few years, I'll chime in:
The only car I can think of that is post 2001 that can run on veg oil is a Skoda Octavia, either in 90hp or 110hp form. I believe they used the non-PD
engine until 2003. VW and Audi switched over in 2001.
Easiest way to know for certain whether a VAG engine of late 90's is non-PD is that the oil filler cap will be on the same side as the cam belt,
rather than the rear of the engine (as on PD engines). Only 90hp and 110hp versions were non-PD and suitable for veg oil.
Mondeo TDCi will not run on veg oil, neither will Peugeot HDI or Lucas TD engines, or any other DCi or common rail engine.
Older stuff such as 406 estates will run, but you need to make sure it's a Bosch pump and not a Lucas one. Older Mercs are happy with it too.
As for the law, you are allowed 2500 litres per year, duty free, for your own use. So unless you're using more than that, you do not need to pay
anything (if you DO use more you need to pay duty on the whole lot by the way)
Personal recommendation would be for a late 90's VW Passat or Audi A4. Both are amazing cars, love veg oil, and are cheap and reliable, and come
in estate form.
Pavs
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bashracing
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 06:09 PM |
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somethhing like this, it will probably have a lucas pump on though but swap one from an earlier bosch pump car and you're away!
Peugeot 306 1.9d 5door very low milage diesel | eBay
[Edited on 26/1/13 by bashracing]
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jossey
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 09:25 PM |
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My old BMW 525d worked ok with bio it was a 2006
Did about 150k on bio n veg oil
Not great when its winter but ok in sring to November.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 09:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
My mate reckons his 04 Mondeo TDCi will be happy with veg oil?
He should try bio first, and then you can smirk when it keeps cutting out. Mine despised bio (but it appeared to be fine in about 15% bio to
diesel)
Also: http://www.dieselveg.com/
[Edited on 26/1/13 by Ninehigh]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 26/1/13 at 10:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
somethhing like this, it will probably have a lucas pump on though but swap one from an earlier bosch pump car and you're away!
Peugeot 306 1.9d 5door very low milage diesel | eBay
[Edited on 26/1/13 by bashracing]
If the model number in the title of that auction is correct (1.9d) then it's the non-turbo diesel engine. 70bhp and 0-60 in about 17 seconds.
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bashracing
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 12:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
somethhing like this, it will probably have a lucas pump on though but swap one from an earlier bosch pump car and you're away!
Peugeot 306 1.9d 5door very low milage diesel | eBay
[Edited on 26/1/13 by bashracing]
If the model number in the title of that auction is correct (1.9d) then it's the non-turbo diesel engine. 70bhp and 0-60 in about 17 seconds.
Cheap, fast, reliable! You can only have two of the three, if this car exists though that's 51 reg on runs on veg oil and does 60 in 7 seconds
and is cheap to buy put my name down for one too
[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 03:05 AM |
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Yeah the 306 non turbo diesel is quick as dry cement off a shovel. Tbh I didn't believe it had 70bhp...
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blakep82
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 11:16 AM |
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Never knew it was so complicated... 
Thanks for all the info, I didnt expect it would be that hard to find a suitable car these days.
And thank you for the link geoff, I'll have a good read through as much as I can take in there!
Something thats confusing me though now, saw an advert the other day for mcdonalds, says they run their lorries on the used cooking oils, but surely
they're all common rail diesels? How can they do it?
Is there a difference between just putting old filtered oil in, and processing the stuff with all the methanol and sodium hydroxide you can buy? Will
it run in newer cars by changing it to biodiesel/biofuel?
Going to the auction later just to see whats there
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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bashracing
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 11:27 AM |
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it's alittle bit of twisting the truth, they actually mix 5% veg oil with regular diesel, and only because it gets them tax releif
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tegwin
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 11:37 AM |
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Just out of interest...those that do run veg oil.. what kind of MPG are you getting compared to running pure diesel?
[Edited on 27/1/13 by tegwin]
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Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 07:08 PM |
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My Peugeot hdi is running fine on bio (so far) and I appear to be dropping about 5mpg. However the place I get it from is 10ppl cheaper than the
supremarket nearby so i guess that evens out (I'm in the process of finding out)
I suppose maccies are turning their oil into biodiesel or using the twin tank thing (as my link above)
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PSpirine
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 07:29 PM |
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Another misconception.
Veg oil is not the same as biodiesel.
When we talk about cars suitable for veg oil, I mean literally running on neat veg oil as you buy in tesco (or filtered and de-watered if you want to
run it on used oil). Older cars with mechanical pumps (as described above) are what you want for veg oil due to viscosity.
Biodiesel is a different kettle of fish - it's processed using methanol and transesterification which turns the oil into a rather acidic diesel
fuel. Well-made biodiesel will work in almost any diesel engine (inc. HDI, TDCi, Common rails etc.). Here the limiting factor is not the viscosity,
but simply the fact that it will attack a lot of rubber seals, but this depends on the fuel system. McDonalds run their lorries on biodiesel, they do
not blend veg oil into diesel.
My Passat on veg oil saw less than 10% reduction in mpg compared to diesel (about a 4-5mpg drop on a 55mpg average). I only use veg oil when I buy it
for £1 per litre or less, otherwise not worth it. At those prices, my fuel running costs for the car including servicing are less than £0.10 per mile.
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 09:30 PM |
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no modern diesel can run on 'SVO' or straight veg oil.
the 2500 litres a year limit only applied to proper biodiesel last time i checked, so unless your processing the oil to meet EN14214 or better you
should 'technically' be paying duty on it. This may have changed though.
just my opinion, but a 1.7dti astra estate will probably be cheaper to run on pump diesel in the long run than an older vehicle using veg oil. mate
had one of these that would return 55MPG if driven steady. 2 people i know have succesfully run vehicles on veg oil, one had a 1989 mercedes
'124' 2.5d, and the other a toyota 4runner, these both ran lovely on it, both had bosch fuel pumps but neither was efficient to begin with
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 09:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
Another misconception.
Veg oil is not the same as biodiesel.
When we talk about cars suitable for veg oil, I mean literally running on neat veg oil as you buy in tesco (or filtered and de-watered if you want to
run it on used oil). Older cars with mechanical pumps (as described above) are what you want for veg oil due to viscosity.
Biodiesel is a different kettle of fish - it's processed using methanol and transesterification which turns the oil into a rather acidic diesel
fuel. Well-made biodiesel will work in almost any diesel engine (inc. HDI, TDCi, Common rails etc.). Here the limiting factor is not the viscosity,
but simply the fact that it will attack a lot of rubber seals, but this depends on the fuel system. McDonalds run their lorries on biodiesel, they do
not blend veg oil into diesel.
My Passat on veg oil saw less than 10% reduction in mpg compared to diesel (about a 4-5mpg drop on a 55mpg average). I only use veg oil when I buy it
for £1 per litre or less, otherwise not worth it. At those prices, my fuel running costs for the car including servicing are less than £0.10 per mile.
Hmm, I was under the impression that biodiesel was made from wvo or svo, and that it's not the same in the same way that crude oil is not the
same as petrol
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 10:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bashracing
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
[If the model number in the title of that auction is correct (1.9d) then it's the non-turbo diesel engine. 70bhp and 0-60 in about 17 seconds.
Cheap, fast, reliable! You can only have two of the three, if this car exists though that's 51 reg on runs on veg oil and does 60 in 7 seconds
and is cheap to buy put my name down for one too
[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]
The 306 1.9 Turbo Diesel is still a reliable engine and has greatly improved performance over the non-turbo, and fuel economy is pretty much the same.
Unless you are some kind of masochist, there's little point in buying the old normally aspirated diesels.
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morcus
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 10:08 PM |
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I used to work at McDonalds, and I worked with a guy who made Biodiesel out of oil he got free from work before they started keeping it all. I'm
sure he said with everything involved it cost about 90p a litre to make using the free oil and he used to run a fairly modern transit on it, but it
deffinitly didn't smell of chips and took alot of refining and as said thats what they use in the trucks.
He still makes the diesel, the store just convieniently 'spills' a fair amount of waste oil. That will be ending soon though as the next
plan is to have the oild pumped directly into a tank and then into a truck.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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bashracing
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| posted on 27/1/13 at 10:17 PM |
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[Edited on 27/1/13 by bashracing]
The 306 1.9 Turbo Diesel is still a reliable engine and has greatly improved performance over the non-turbo, and fuel economy is pretty much the same.
Unless you are some kind of masochist, there's little point in buying the old normally aspirated diesels.
looking at 51 reg onwards the last of the 1.9td was 1999
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blakep82
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| posted on 28/1/13 at 12:25 AM |
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So, after reading through all the links, am I right in this:
Plain veg oil, ie SVO or WVO filtered, moisture removed and straight in the tank is only really suitable for older engines, and not newer common rail
diesels
Converted bio can go in common rails, but the acids/alkali (cant remember which it is) can rot hoses and seal
Thats what ive got from vegetableoildiesel.co.uk
However, dieselveg.com says you can use veg oil in common rails, with no mention of converting it, except you need to reduce the vicosity and pump it
into a warm engine, and this can be done with heat exchangers to warm the oil to around 70 degrees, and starting and stopping the engine on diesel
with a 2 tank system.
Is that about right? Obviously still need to make sure the pump is up to it, diselveg have kits, and talk of 2005 vw vans running veg oil. Kits cost
the same as about 5 or 6 tanks of diesel. Depending on where you can get veg oil from (chippy, kebab shop etc) and how they get rid of their old oil,
which ive still to investigate, you could pay it back pretty quickly tbh...
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 28/1/13 at 05:11 AM |
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Yeah from what I understand the biggest problem with the veg oil is that it's thick when cold. The 2 tank system means the main tank gets heated
up with the engine
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