Zagato
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 10:43 AM |
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Caterham Quality!
I am thinking of building a Roadsport Caterham from a complete kit but wanted to ask about the quality of the body/chassis.
I noticed in the Caterham showroon that the rear of model R500 CCC has 2 small cracks in the ali where the rear lips under the body! I also wonder
how good the chassis is for rust resistance if it is only powder coated (they used to be galvanised apparently). Also how good is the protection
against electrolysis between the ali and metal. Anyone got a ten year+ model.
Shame you cant galv the chassis yourself and put a physical barrier in between the two metals yourself but I think the skin is integral to the
strength - not sure.
Westfeilds look good also at roughly 5K cheaper but I fancy a Caterham.
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40inches
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 10:52 AM |
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Can't comment on the quality, but have you sat in one? I have driven one and was surprised how "cosy" the cockpit is, compared to
other 7's. You get to be very friendly with the passenger 
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Zagato
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 11:13 AM |
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Yes the SV version was the answer for me, it's roughly 4" wider so gives decent space between the pedals and a bit more elbow room but
I'm used to driving Series Land Rovers and Defenders so not a problem
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 11:59 AM |
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You could protect the chassis by building it your self by sending it to a company that will hot zinc spray it (less chance of chassis distortion than
hot dip)..
I do wish I had hotzinc sprayed our chassis, but it's an MK (large tubes, thick walled, mig welded) not quite the same proposition as a real 7
chassis (smaller tubes thinner gauge and also brazed).
Probably not worth it; unless you have to use the car all the time, that's unlikely probably more a toy car in any-case..
I think Galvanic corrosion with steel and ali cause the ali to rust first; this is a good thing in that the ali parts are replaceable should the need
arise; but it will probably need a strip down to do it properly... Not sure how the riveting is done, they should use a sealing compound on each rivet
to ensure water can't get between the different metals.
You will need to keep an eye on corrosion in anycase, nice thing about the 7 is it's small and you can keep an eye out for rust on most of the
chassis.
Biggest corrosion issue is keeping the ali parts looking good, salt+water left unchecked causes a mess; frequent cleaning and polish is a must unless
you go for painting the body.
Bit of waxol will help but can/will look messy.. How much wet driving will you do....
Dan
[Edited on 19/3/13 by Bluemoon]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 12:16 PM |
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The alloy panels on these type of cars tend to get replaced more than once in the cars life time not a big deal really.
As for corrosion the chassis is most likely to corrode from the inside out, only way to prevent that is to spray cavity wax into the tubes.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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ashg
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 12:17 PM |
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other than the ali side panels corroding along the bottom edges and making the paint flake off they don't tend to have many issues with
corrosion if looked after.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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mcerd1
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 12:28 PM |
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it sound like you need to get out and have a look round a few more kits before you make your mind up 
the stoneleigh show is a good place to start, but thats not till May...
quote:
Originally posted by Zagato
they used to be galvanised apparently
not sure what the mean by galvanised - proper hot-dip galv. doesn't work all that well on small tubes in a space frame (you have to drill vent
holes everywhere)
I've seen some people call a zinc rich primer 'galvanising' before 
also zinc against alloy isn't that good either....
I wouldn't worry about it rusting too much unless you plan to use it all year as your only car 
[Edited on 19/3/2013 by mcerd1]
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Zagato
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 01:40 PM |
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It will be a toy for life and yeah your right I shouldn't worry I'm just used to Land Rovers
e.g. bare unprotected metal under body capping's, chassis and other metal components just powder coated or painted without any protective
undercoat so rust just comes through after a few years. Rusting door bottoms where ali meets steel etc, etc. You even have to go through the
'Defender Water Ingress Manual' to seal your windows, capping's, bulkhead, floors etc to stop water getting in - most other
manufacturers do this at the factory
I spent 2 weeks painting my new Defender chassis with POR-15, sealing everything and coating everything in ACF-50, I then sold it after a year  but
now Dinitrol other peoples Defenders every now and then to help them out.
Hopefully the Caterham chassis/body panels will be OK for 20 years as I won't be keen on forking out for a new one plus paint
[Edited on 19/3/13 by Zagato]
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scootz
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 02:03 PM |
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The quality on the Caterham is head and shoulders above most replica Seven-alikes.
If you use it as a dry-weather toy then it will stay looking pristine for many years to come (with a little elbow grease from yourself!).
That said, if you want to use it all year round, then it will suffer... as everything does. Personally, I think an older cat showing signs of wear /
tear / battle is a fabulous thing!
A chassis refurb and re-skin is around £3k from Arch.
It's Evolution Baby!
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mcerd1
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 04:19 PM |
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one other question to ask yourself is how easy a build do you want ?
caterhams are probably one of the easiest builds and should still give you a high quality car
westfiels is probably the next easiest
the likes of my dax rush can be made into a high quality car, but its not quite as 'complete' a kit so gives alot choice/freedom on how
you build it - personaly I like that
and some of the scratch build locosts are absalutly first class - it all just depends on the time, effort, skill or cash you've got avalible for
the build
quote:
Originally posted by Zagato
Rusting door bottoms where ali meets steel etc
^^ I've well aware of that problem - my dad's old 110 is in dire need of new doors
but most kits will use a bead of PU adhesive sealant between the steel chassis and the alloy panels which should go a long way to help with that
little issue
I would assume caterham use something similar...
[Edited on 19/3/2013 by mcerd1]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 04:19 PM |
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Given a choice between a Caterham or a Birkin I know which one I think wins on quality.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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richardh
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 06:07 PM |
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catering vans and quality, all those words in one sentence. hmmmmmmmmmmmm
i'd rather have a westfield or any other 7 and rust treat it myself.
i've seen better build quality from clueless motoring tv presenters...............
each to their own i guess and its only my opinion of course.
Time for a change!
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Zagato
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 06:27 PM |
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This from a blog I have just found. The 1.4 K engine can be problematic also, glad I'm going for a Sigma and body from new to get it rust
proofed as well as you can from new!
" Powder coat…. I think between 1996 and 1998 the quality of powder coat used was pretty substandard. My car is awaiting a visit to Arch to be
recoated and re-skinned due to powder coat issues and the ensuing bi-metallic corrosion that takes place. Any older car will have issues with that
sort of thing. First winter with my car I disassembled it a bit, cleaned up and treated it with POR-15 which does a very good job (don’t use
‘Hammerite’ it’ll just chip off). Have a good look underneath, particularly the sump as they are only 110mm off the ground "
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scootz
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 06:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by richardh
catering vans and quality, all those words in one sentence. hmmmmmmmmmmmm
i'd rather have a westfield or any other 7 and rust treat it myself.
i've seen better build quality from clueless motoring tv presenters...............
each to their own i guess and its only my opinion of course.
Nonsense!
It's Evolution Baby!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 06:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Zagato
This from a blog I have just found. The 1.4 K engine can be problematic also, glad I'm going for a Sigma and body from new to get it rust
proofed as well as you can from new!
" Powder coat…. I think between 1996 and 1998 the quality of powder coat used was pretty substandard. My car is awaiting a visit to Arch to be
recoated and re-skinned due to powder coat issues and the ensuing bi-metallic corrosion that takes place. Any older car will have issues with that
sort of thing. First winter with my car I disassembled it a bit, cleaned up and treated it with POR-15 which does a very good job (don’t use
‘Hammerite’ it’ll just chip off). Have a good look underneath, particularly the sump as they are only 110mm off the ground "
Funny thing but total accumulated mileage across our family fleet of K series engined cars past and present is over 450,000 miles and rising
with no massive problems, they are easy and cheap engines to work on.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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richardh
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| posted on 19/3/13 at 10:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by richardh
catering vans and quality, all those words in one sentence. hmmmmmmmmmmmm
i'd rather have a westfield or any other 7 and rust treat it myself.
i've seen better build quality from clueless motoring tv presenters...............
each to their own i guess and its only my opinion of course.
Nonsense!
I've seen them straight out the factory and wasn't at all impressed.
Maybe I just saw a lot of poor ones but at 18k for the cheapest, my mnr was far better quality.
Actually my Robin Hood was even better.
Still, whatever floats your boat and if its buying a name is more important than quality then fair do's
Time for a change!
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daniel mason
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| posted on 20/3/13 at 07:09 AM |
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if you class a shiny powdercoat as better quality then ok, but quality of the chassis design,engineering,proportions,member placement,geometry etc,
then they are very very good indeed!
it should hold its value better than any other,although westfields tend to have strong residuals also. having said all this an older sylva striker in
need of a makeover would be a good choice. far cheaper,well designed,light, and a good pedigree on track handling wise!
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 20/3/13 at 10:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
The quality on the Caterham is head and shoulders above most replica Seven-alikes.
If you use it as a dry-weather toy then it will stay looking pristine for many years to come (with a little elbow grease from yourself!).
That said, if you want to use it all year round, then it will suffer... as everything does. Personally, I think an older cat showing signs of wear /
tear / battle is a fabulous thing!
A chassis refurb and re-skin is around £3k from Arch.
My current Caterham was built by myself and registered in Feb 1993. Although road registered the first 5 years of its life were spent pretty much as a
mod prod sprint/hillclimb car and it did very little road mileage. Total mileage is now approx. 30,000.
Mine is polished and not painted. many say its hard work but its not. I polish it once a year at the very most and its now probably 4 years since it
has been polished. There is no corrosion on the body or chassis and IMHO it still looks superb with the expected patina of 20 years use.
When built I wayoyled all the underside etc and I never use it when there is any salt about. It does get used in the rain, with the typical British
summer weather it would not get used otherwise. I simply leather it off when I get home.
Car was originally a x-flow, now has a 2 litre Blacktop Zetec. Will probably never sell it, when it needs any body/chassis work it will go back to
Arch and get sorted.
This is my second Caterham, had one for 4 years before this but at the time it made more financial sense to sell it and build a new one than upgrade
the original, I had the bug for some serious hillclimbing. Got every penny back I had invested in that car when I sold it.
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Zagato
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| posted on 21/3/13 at 01:20 PM |
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Good to hear Paul, think this maybe the trick i.e. build it yourself with plenty Dinitrol and ACF-50 and improve things where you can.
Have to say reading 'Blatchat' I am seriously put off by threads reporting problems with Caterhams and the poor customer service.
One guy spent 37K on a new factory built one and it spent 6months out of 20 off the road after he had finally got Caterham to sort things out.
Sounded like a real battle, he sold it of course and moved on.
I won't give other examples but my enthusiasm has been seriously 'felled'. I can put up with a few niggles with good honest
customer support, nothing is perfect in the world of mechanics after all but reading the threads has seriously put me off. SHAME
It's a shame you can't post a thread on 'blatchat' asking to detail the problems so you are aware of them and fix them as you
build.... but I'm not forking out £50 to do so
Still want though - drool
[Edited on 21/3/13 by Zagato]
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 21/3/13 at 02:09 PM |
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The Caterham scene is not what it was back in 1988 when I bought my first starter kit. Back then most new owners were knowledgeable about cars and
managed to build one with no issues and we used a lot of reclaimed parts and did it for sensible money. Think my first car was on the road for about
£8500 and that was with leather seats, full weather gear, revolution wheels, etc. One chap did it on the "cheap" and built a nice car for
about £6000 but it was pretty basic to say the least. He still has a Caterham, a proper enthusiast like me.
Don't go on Blatchat myself, its not the money it costs but its the people that now inhabit the site. There are some good people on there but
many just have loads of cash and no idea whatsoever and are happy to spend £40,000 or more on what is really a toy. I still see quite a few of the
people that I made good friends with 20 or more years ago, some still have Caterhams, some have moved on to other hobbies, some have families and
grand-kids, don't think many of then are involved with the current club.
Both my cars were built form starter kits by me (with a bit help form Dad when parts got awkward or heavy) and I had no issues with either. I am a
surveyor by trade with no involvement with the motor trade whatsoever. I approach things carefully and think them through and I honestly believe if a
manual is provided it pays to read it. They were really easy to build and the manuals provided were excellent. The only part that I had changed under
warranty was a prop on the first car, never even fitted it, one UJ was virtually solid.
Back in 1988 when I built my first car the Caterham was my obvious choice. I had desired one since the early 1970's when there used to be a full
page advert in every issue of Motorsport by Caterham cars and back then was was a more obvious Lotus connection. When my financial circumstances
allowed a "toy" my original wife said no to the Caterham because it was going to cost 1/2 what we paid for the house, could see her point,
but she said OK to a Westfield. When Westfield brought out the fibreglass bodied SE (now referred to as the pre-lit) back in 1987 I won a 2nd or 3rd
prize in a competition for a discounted starter kit, 1st prize was a free starter kit. Think pretty much all I need to buy from Westfield to get the
chassis rolling was £400, just add Cortina uprights/brakes, Escort Axle and a X-flow engine and box, Mini steering rack (I think), Allegro steering UJ
and a mini van fuel tank, instruments, seats, wheels, tyres and a few hundred hours labour. Total cost was projected to be about £3000.
But we divorced and I thought that was the end of that dream. The following year I had sorted out my finances and could see I could still do it but
without anyone to help me make a decision it was going to be a Caterham, no question. Car ordered, life insurance policy cashed in, overdraft arranged
and here we are almost 25 years later.
I come on here because on the whole its populated by people building cars to use for sensible money without huge bonus's to fund their hobby.
Most have far greater skills than me, I cannot weld and never soldered but its not stopped me building 2 Caterhams because they are simple to
assemble.
Would love to build a new car now but the difference between a new kit and the value of my car is simply to great plus back in my day there was no IVA
to worry about. Simply get local garage to MOT it, arrange for DVLA inspector to call (all he was bothered about was checking the chassis number,
engine number and looking what used parts were in it), visit local DVLA office and get reg number and tax disk. No bother whatsoever.
I would say go for it, you only live once.
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Zagato
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| posted on 21/3/13 at 06:02 PM |
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Thanks Paul, very interesting.
I think you are right, you can improve the build yourself by spending time on it, rust prevention treatments, soldering and sealing connections not
just crimping them, etc, etc. Rust and electrics like most cars seem to be the biggest bugbear if you have modern reliable mechanicals.
25K is a HUGE sum for me and I would have to sell my beautiful yacht to do it, but spending 3k per year on mooring fees etc is too much to justify on
a hobby - even if i could afford it . Go back to cheap trailer sailing and buy a Caterham kit or a second hand Caterham for 13K, there are a couple
of really nice ones out there.
2001 4300 miles 1 owner Beaulie Edition 13K, OK mechanicals not used much but the rest should be in very good nick - I'd buy it like a shot but
no dosh at moment and would REALLY like to build my own, it's more than half the experience I think . The one in the picture I think is also
similar money, they don't go much under 10K if you can find one.
I put this topic up on a Land Rover and Boating forum and the feedback was 100% positive (a rare thing for cars). Some built them in the 80'
& 90's some bought factory ones, some had mates but they ALL said they loved them, regretted selling them and that the build quality was
good, good chassis from Arch etc so I am back on track and will get one hopefully next year once the sailing season has finished.
I wonder if Arch still make the chassis? I wonder also if you could drill a small hole in the tubes to get cavity wax in without ruining the
structural integrity. Best left I think and stop worrying so much...
I did a Land Rover rebuild to a rolling chassis and enjoyed that very much, just ran out of dosh after 8K would have cost 12k in total.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 22/3/13 at 11:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Zagato
I wonder if Arch still make the chassis? I wonder also if you could drill a small hole in the tubes to get cavity wax in without ruining the
structural integrity. Best left I think and stop worrying so much...
As far as I know chassis production for new cars changed to a company called "Steel Fabrications" in about 2006. This coincided with the
change from imperial to metric fastenings, bushes etc in the build of the car, they call the current chassis "metric" and the older Arch
chassis "imperial". Parts like roll cages etc are not interchangeable. Arch Motors still supply replacement chassis for older cars and
will carry out repairs to those older cars.
Drilling the tubes to inject wax must be a bad idea, any hole is certain to weaken the tubes to some extent but since most tubes already have holes in
them for riveting the skin on it must be minimal. Guess the tube size is calculated to allow for such drilling. If you really wanted to inject wax
since most tubes have holes for rivets it would be easy enough to simply drill the rivet out, inject wax and re rivet.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 22/3/13 at 01:11 PM |
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Actually all the tubes should already have small holes in them, these are required when welding or bronze welding as the expansion &
contraction of the air inside the tube blows holes in the molten weld pool.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Zagato
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| posted on 23/3/13 at 08:18 PM |
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Drool, this one looks drop dead gorgeous...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C337671
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daniel mason
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| posted on 23/3/13 at 08:42 PM |
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seems like you likr the older ones! Why not buy a used car and do it up? youll get one for £10k easily if you wait
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