I've recently bought a TT for not a lot of money.
It's in very good order and goes very well.
If I'm honest, it's the first every day usable quick car I've ever had and certainly leagues quicker than the MGF was in a straight
line. Not as chuckable or exciting as the Locost was and nothing like as much as an event as driving that ever was.
What I don't quite get is that because the power is so usable most of the time is what you're actually meant to do with it.
I'll now contradict myself.
1st and 2nd gears pretty much see to all non motorway speed limits if you're in the mod for a drive. At that point you have to back off because
it's all happening too fast for the conditions and speed limits.
So you back off and drive at the same rate of progress as all the other traffic. At this point, you're using little of the available power and
using more fuel to do it than everyone else around you.
You then get bored of this and think you'll give it the beans again, so you do and then everyone gets in your way because they're all
doing 20-30mph less than your average speed.
As a tool for going quickly, it's very very good.
As something to enjoy driving, it's a wash out.
Conversely, I've been driving a Peugeot 107 at work for the last month or so. All 1000cc and three cylinders of it. It's so slow that you
have to spank it everywhere.
As an instrument of driving pleasure, it's so much better than the TT if what you're looking for is to get properly involved in the whole
journey and you're looking for more than the ability to leap tall buildings with a single bound.
I probably wouldn't go so far as to buy a 107, but I do see your point.
Oddly enough, on the MX5 forum someone was asking about the 1.8 MX5 0-60, because it felt slower than their old 1.6. Turns out the 1.6 is a bit more
'willing' up to 60, and only loses out to the 1.8 when you're pushing on. But in reality, unless you're on the track
you'll spend most of your driving below 60, so in theory the 1.6 is a 'better' road car.
Photo Archive
Building: Built: Roadster, Exocet, Bertini, Now Something Di
posted on 21/4/14 at 11:24 AM
thats why you need something much much much faster then you can bomb past everyone :-) or just give up and buy a motorbike. they seem to be the only
things where you can enjoy for a long and spirited period until some numpty knocks you off.
being serious though! the continent is where its at these days. all my kit car trips i have planned this year are not in the uk!
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
quote:Originally posted by mcerd1
mp 2p's worth...
I think your missing the point of the TT and MGF - they are quick enough on paper so you can say its 'sporty'
but they are aimed at people who want the sporty image, yet will never go near the speed limit and will only ever drive it to work and back slowly
so its tuned to be 'comfortable' at these speeds because thats what these folk want
but thats also bound to make it dull to drive
I still miss my 45hp 106 - 4 gears, 954cc and a carb - but it always put a smile on my face
if I had more space I'd buy myself a good 106 rallye 1.3 8v (100hp, 7200rpm, 825kg, steel wheels )
[Edited on 21/4/2014 by mcerd1]
I completely follow your logic and agree with it.
We've both reached the same conclusion, we can have fun small and low powered cars.
If it worked for James Hunt, I'm happy to reach the same conclusion.
It may sound daft but even my Mondeo tdci has too much power, or at least too much torque for the road.
A small petrol engine that needs to be revved is much more fun. The last Citroen GSA I had was great fun as it had a lovely revvy flat four with all
of 65bhp, skinny tyres very forgiving handling and great brakes.
Photo Archive
Building: Maintenance and improvement of fleet!
posted on 21/4/14 at 01:07 PM
So I'm fortunate to have a E60 M5 and as my daily driver. In order to keep on top of overusing the M5, I purchased a MK1 MX5 a month or so ago.
I have to say that I enjoy driving the Mazda almost as much as the M5. Sure the M5 is a proper 'event' every time I get in it, BUT the
MX5 is just bloody great fun! I'm driving the MX5 more than I thought that I would and enjoying every minute.
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
This point actually occurs to me quite often. When I'm driving my 80bhp van around, I'm usually going much faster than everyone else,
even fast cars. I often chuckle thattheir sports cars are so powerful that they are trying to save fuel. Fact is you can get about very promptly in a
slow motor nowadays, whereas when I'm out in the audi biturbo I end up going excessively fast, maybe even too fast. And 250bhp isn't even
that much compared to properly fast cars.
The zafira diesel I had on holiday had enough power to have the wheels scrabbling as the boast came on.
Photo Archive
Building: Dax Rush - very, very slowly....
posted on 21/4/14 at 03:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by v8kid
What combos would you have?
as above the 1.3 8v 106 Rallye would do me nicely on its own - just a pitty I need the family bus (c-max at the moment) as well these days
quote:Originally posted by whitestu
quote:
I think you will find the fastest cars in the world are the most fun to drive, which according to topgear the fastest ones are hire cars.
I think PJ O'Rourke came up with that one first.
but I don't think any of them had the little 1.2 8v fiat 500 in mind when they said it....
I had one as my last hire car and it was fairly good fun to drive despite the stupidly light steering, but it was definitely not the fastest car on
the road by a long long way (and I was trying really hard at times!)
68hp and 900kg sound promising, but it ran out of puff on the so called "hills" of the M2 motorway
I'm well used to cars that run out of puff uphill (my first 8 years of driving were in cars with less than 50hp)
but even the GF's clio doesn't feel as gutless and its got 8hp less and 90kg more
the only answer I could come up with is all the modern eco b*****ks over gearing thats choking the life out of the newer car....
quote:Originally posted by zilspeed As a tool for going quickly, it's very very good.
As something to enjoy driving, it's a wash out.
You've answered your own question, surely?
Most people want their everyday car to be able to cruise at whatever speed the law allows (plus a comfortable margin) on motorways and to keep pace
with traffic and overtake, all without breaking sweat at any time. This is what modern performance cars do. They are very good at it.
If you want something that's genuinely fun to drive without risking losing your licence, buy an old Mini, an MG Midget or (the ultimate, in my
experience, albeit with a very high price tag these days) an old Lotus Elan.
Elises, MX5's and Smart Roadsters come close, but they still have too much grip in relation to their power output (and too abrupt a breakaway,
thanks to wide, modern rubber) to be as much fun as the older cars. You can probably blame the insurance companies and risk of litigation for that:
these days, if you give a car a decent power:weight ratio, you have to give it enough grip to be idiot proof as well.
but I don't think any of them had the little 1.2 8v fiat 500 in mind when they said it....
I had one as my last hire car and it was fairly good fun to drive despite the stupidly light steering, but it was definitely not the fastest car on
the road by a long long way (and I was trying really hard at times!)
68hp and 900kg sound promising, but it ran out of puff on the so called "hills" of the M2 motorway
I'm well used to cars that run out of puff uphill (my first 8 years of driving were in cars with less than 50hp)
but even the GF's clio doesn't feel as gutless and its got 8hp less and 90kg more
the only answer I could come up with is all the modern eco b*****ks over gearing thats choking the life out of the newer car....
You should try a 1.4 or 1.6 petrol Astra. I've had a few as hire cars now, and you have to change down gear to get over a manhole cover...
Photo Archive
Building: It is an ex-Locost - it has gone to the IOW!
posted on 22/4/14 at 10:08 AM
quote:Originally posted by Sam_68
Elises, MX5's and Smart Roadsters come close, but they still have too much grip in relation to their power output (and too abrupt a breakaway,
thanks to wide, modern rubber) to be as much fun as the older cars. You can probably blame the insurance companies and risk of litigation for that:
these days, if you give a car a decent power:weight ratio, you have to give it enough grip to be idiot proof as well.
That's exactly why I built my Locost the way I did - I made it 'old fashioned', with a 1600cc x-flow engine that gives just about
100BHP and fairly skinny high-profile tyres (by modern standards). As it only weighs 600Kg it's faster than most ordinary cars on ordinary
roads, will corner better than most, and the tyres' grip is very predictable - I can make the back end step out if I want to, and I can usually
tell when it's about to go if I'm driving in a spirited fashion. It's also very easy to recover if it does start to go -
there's nothing sudden - unless the road is soaking wet, when any light-weight RWD car is going to have difficulty anyway!
Not that I drive it especially fast - there's enough fun driving at legal speeds on the country roads around where I live (Suffolk) - it's
just that I tend not to slow down for corners!
I reckon for a daily driver you want a good dollop of torque to suit lazy driving and easy overtaking, and for a toy car low torque and high revs so
you have to spank it.
I still maintain one of the most fun cars I've driven was a 1.0L 3 cylinder mitsubishi colt my dad had whilst his V70 was being repaired. You
had to cane the thing just to keep up with other traffic, and it slid all over the shop thanks to skinny eco tyres- it genuinely was a riot.
Conversely I was driving a bonkers fast prototype Jag the other day, which was hilarious for the 0.0005 seconds you could keep the throttle pinned
before either self preservation, license preservation or other traffic intervened.
If I was picking two cars- an M135i appeals massively as a daily (I don't do many miles so no point in a diesel), and one of Clares V6 MX5s
would suit me nicely as a toy- cheap, sounds ace and more power than grip if you don't go silly with tyres.
Driving enjoyment isn't a lot to do with how quick a car is, my most enjoyable road drivers have mainly been lower powered cars in a couple of
cases ludicrously under powered.
(1) MG TF --- no not the modern one that was made 60 yeas ago, it had the most precise steering of any car I have ever driven.
(2) Austin Champ -- again very precise steering with just the right amount of feed back.
(3) Sunbeam Imp Sport --- ridiculously chuckable absolute hoot to drive.
(4) Lotus Plus 2S impeccable road manners, fantastic in all sorts of corners, sounded great but really needed a bigger engine.
The other thing they all had in common was lousy brakes, the Lotus suffered badly from too much front brake bias, the Imp needed care in icy
conditions as the fronts would lock at the slightest touch of the brakes, the other two just had woefully inadequate drum brakes.
[Edited on 22/4/14 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
I think this is why I enjoy driving my L200 so much....
One of the folk I work with asked me if I didn't fancy a car which I could sit on the motorway at 120mph in? 'No - there is nothing clever
about driving fast in a straight line, but judging by the number of people who get it wrong they aren't clever enough'
Trouble is when your held up in 45-50 mile an hour traffic you want to be doing 50 mpg, but
because your in a sports car assumably petrol engined, your likely to be doing less than 30mpg.
So you need a quick car that will do 50mpg on the motorway 40mpg in traffic, and is quick when
you want it to be. I,m afraid you need a diesel something like a 330d the torque of these
cars will satisfy your needs and the fuel economy will help your wallet.
I've been driving a slow car for years while the fast car is in and out of service. I can honestly say I'd rather drive the fast car - the
slow one might get 50mpg but that doesn't make up for the soul destroying lack of fun it is to drive. The problem with the TT is it's too
civilised.
But this is why I'm now designing and building my own - I can't push the fast tin top to a point that it's as exciting as I'd
like it without investing 10's of Ks and it still won't be that much fun. I keep the old 306D because it takes me everywhere without ever
failing.
quote:Originally posted by britishtrident
.... Lotus Plus 2S impeccable road manners, fantastic in all sorts of corners, sounded great but really needed a bigger engine.
The car didn't need a bigger engine, the engine needed a smaller car.
It's called a Lotus Elan
I've owned a couple of examples of both, and I can say with some confidence that the 2 seater is significantly brisker; you will hear
Plus 2 owners claiming that their car is only slightly less potent than the 2-seater Elan, and quoting the similar top speeds as proof of their
argument. It's bo**ox... the reason the top speed of the Elan isn't higher is that it runs out of revs (gearing) long before it runs out
of power, whereas the peak power speed and gearing of the Plus 2 are much more closely matched.
The Elan is basically a Plus 2 with the same impeccable manners but less grip (narrower track means more weight transfer) and a better power:weight
ratio, which makes it a win:win scenario in the context of this thread!
The Plus 2 feels much more of a 'grown up' car, though, and makes a much better long-distance tourer.
I agree with you on Imps - another of my favourite cars - but I'd be hard pressed to deny that its arch-rival, the Mini, wasn't just as
much of a hoot to drive.
quote:Originally posted by David Jenkins
That's exactly why I built my Locost the way I did - I made it 'old fashioned', with a 1600cc x-flow engine that gives just about
100BHP and fairly skinny high-profile tyres (by modern standards).
And exactly the approach that Caterham is taking with their new 160, of course.
It'll be interesting to see whether there are enough sufficiently enlightened customers to make it a success?
On its own, a light weight car with no power anything (steer, brakes and engine) is a joy to drive. It is not the speed that give the driving
enjoyment, but it is the sensation of running the machine at its peak.
However when Mr. White van man turned up in your mirrors and you can't loose him. All this euphoria goes to shatters....
quote:Originally posted by ettore bugatti
On its own, a light weight car with no power anything (steer, brakes and engine) is a joy to drive. It is not the speed that give the driving
enjoyment, but it is the sensation of running the machine at its peak.
However when Mr. White van man turned up in your mirrors and you can't loose him. All this euphoria goes to shatters....
At work we buy vans with the biggest engine possible as we do a lot of towing, and towing on dirt roads. When unloaded, untowing and in the dry they
really fly. We had a old shaped merc sprinter that was very quick. One bloke lost his licence for doing 125 in it. I shocked lots of chavs off the
lights buy leaving them to view my 'how's my driving' sticker. If you could get out of first quickly then second and third gear was
a hoot.
I have a seat 1.4mpi Chill as my daily hack. Its a laugh to drive, you really have to trash it to get anywhere. After a while you think 'wow
I'm flying now' engine screaming, grin on your face and one glance at the speedo reveals your doing 65.
