Saw a few minutes of a TV show last night covering Grp B rally cars. The part I saw showed Peugeot's 205 T16 and elaborated on how successful
it was.
I have to say as a fan of the car I knew it was good, but didn't realise quite how well it destroyed the competition. What a shame they were
banned - IMHO due to spectator errors.
I think the 405 T16 would have followed in the 205's footsteps pretty well if group B had continued to exist, it was sucessful enough in
it's own right at Pikes Peak and Paris Dakar.
quote:Originally posted by obfripper
I think the 405 T16 would have followed in the 205's footsteps pretty well if group B had continued to exist, it was sucessful enough in
it's own right at Pikes Peak and Paris Dakar.
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posted on 25/1/16 at 08:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:Originally posted by nick205
- IMHO due to spectator errors.
Poor spectator management - mainly down to lack of FIA interest in rallying.
I had another look at this Pikes Peak video:
The spectator controls were zero - people standing on the apex of fast curves with toes to the tarmac, crowds on the outside of corners that had no
barriers, and even one spectator running across the track 100 yards in front of the car! This car was doing more than 240kph (150mph) in places...
I was reading a thread elsewhere about cheating in motorsport and there was a suggestion that Lancia had (illegally) used nitrous oxide in the S4 and
that had contributed to Toivenens death. So perhaps it was not purely the spectators who were out of control...
The 205 T16 was dominant but weren't Peugeot pulled up for a few things (wings / skirts?)?
The closest thing to a group b car in recent years was Andy burtons 306. Surprise surprise it was banned. Rallying lost a lot of spectators after that
car was no longer allowed to compete. It still resides about 10 miles from me. Perhaps he will let me have the engine as he isn't using it
anymore!
quote:Originally posted by Adamirish
The closest thing to a group b car in recent years was Andy burtons 306. Surprise surprise it was banned. Rallying lost a lot of spectators after that
car was no longer allowed to compete. It still resides about 10 miles from me. Perhaps he will let me have the engine as he isn't using it
anymore!
I've seen that 306 compete - it's quite a machine!
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posted on 26/1/16 at 09:35 AM
i know Andys original co driver, from the 306, 6R4 and Alfa Ferrari days. Andys a great engineer.
re the 205T16, they came in after some into GrpB so had the benefit of seeing how not to do it. They, like Ford with the RS200 went mid engine to kill
some of the understeer inherent in the front engined Quattro (even after Audi lopped the centre out of the thing to create the SWB versions!).
the 205 used a transverse engine, which caused some strange torque reaction over jumps, hence the push for better aero and the front canards and huge
rear wing
"Racing is life, everything else, before or after, is just waiting"---Steve McQueen
quote:Originally posted by CNHSS1
i know Andys original co driver, from the 306, 6R4 and Alfa Ferrari days. Andys a great engineer.
re the 205T16, they came in after some into GrpB so had the benefit of seeing how not to do it. They, like Ford with the RS200 went mid engine to kill
some of the understeer inherent in the front engined Quattro (even after Audi lopped the centre out of the thing to create the SWB versions!).
the 205 used a transverse engine, which caused some strange torque reaction over jumps, hence the push for better aero and the front canards and huge
rear wing
Interesting - more history I didn't know of.
When you look at the 205 T16 it's so far removed from the 205 road car it's frightening!
One of the things I've heard said as the 'problem' about Group B was the manufacturers stopped rallying the cars they built for the
road, and started building road versions of the cars they rallied... (although Lancia did already have the Stratos)...
Metro 6r4 is equally far from the 'real' car it was supposedly based on (and it's also an interesting story if you haven't
read about it being built by Williams of F1 fame and using the engine that ended up in the XJ220. Ish).
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posted on 26/1/16 at 11:32 AM
if you think GrpB was wild, google Group S ;-)
Group B was already planned to be dropped to allow real specials. Toyota made a GrpS MR2, its in their museum and Audi had a mid engine Quattro.
Lancias Grp S Delta made their GrpB car look tame.
theres some mythology around the Grp S Quattro. The story goes along the lines of they built 2 or 3 and walter Rohrl tested it over the border in some
eastern block country on normal roads!!! the story was they dropped it on the roads, he blasted it around and the local police thought it was gunfire
from the anti lag so the car was quickly scooped back into the truck and driven away as the Audi board weren't fully aware of its existence.
Real cool
"Racing is life, everything else, before or after, is just waiting"---Steve McQueen
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posted on 26/1/16 at 01:42 PM
Ford rs200 used ford tailights and sierra windscreen, wing mirrors and doors based on a production model (think cut down sierra)
GrpB wasnt supposed to be road relevant, but i believe it was essier to use that as a corporate reason for pulling the plug rather than 'we keep
killing spectators and crew'...
If tye spectator control was managed correctly it eould be as dangerous, but Johnny Foreigenr does like to touch their heroes cars as well as look at
them.for some strange reason!
"Racing is life, everything else, before or after, is just waiting"---Steve McQueen
Let's be honest now, those group b cars had become crazy fast and something had to give.That something unfortunately was the young life of Henri
Toivonen.The FIA really had no choice but to can group b.And to think an even faster group s was being mooted at the time!
I'm not old enough tohave seen the group b rallying with my own eyes but have watched plenty of videos and with my boss being a rally driver he
has told me plenty of stories. I would have loved to have seen just how far they would develop. I doubt it would have been long until we saw 1000bhp
monsters ripping around the stages. Though in fairness, pulling the plug when they did was probably the right move. Plenty of videos around of cars
ploughing through the crowds etc. It was never going to last.
quote:Originally posted by nick205
Another thing I learnt recently was that the Escort Cosworth was derived from a Sierra Cosworth - wonder how many are left these days?
Sierra floor pan I believe. There are plenty about. Well, I say about, the majority are locked away in storage. They have rocketed in value and are
more investments than usable cars these days. You need £20k plus to get into a half decent one nowadays!
The escort cossie shares a lot of parts with the sierra cossie 4x4 (basically the same drivetrain and floor pan with a few minor tweaks - that's
then been made to look like an escort) but doesn't share any parts with the 'real' escorts
in fact the ford workshop manual for all the cossie's makes more distinction between a 2wd and a 4x4 than between the 4x4 and the escort
Not surprising that the road going versions of Group B cars are rare though, homologation only required 200 to be built, then 20
'evolution' versions could be built and it seems fairly well documented that most manufacturers didn't really build 200
(there's a story about FIA officials going to inspect one lot of cars, seeing 100 of them at one factory, then going off for lunch before
seeing a 'different' 100 somewhere else!)...
I wonder how many of the Citroën BX Group B car are still kicking about. ..
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posted on 26/1/16 at 10:17 PM
Regarding the 200 build to get homologation, the story goes that the cash strapped longbridge concern hadnt built 200 6R4s when the fia inspectors
came around, but cars in build was acceptable so the inspectors were shown some built cars and a large number of part built 6R4s on dollies but
nowhere near enough to meet the required 200. The inspection was halted for a rather slap up lunch whilst they were wined and dined whilst the part
built cars on dollies were hastily wheeled from one building to another. After lunch the inspectors got to see the second bunch of cars in build, and
when totted up was just enough to meet the 200 required! Likelihood is that there were 120-150 only at that time.
Gotta love the enginuity
[Edited on 26/1/16 by CNHSS1]
"Racing is life, everything else, before or after, is just waiting"---Steve McQueen
posted on 26/1/16 at 01:35 PM
