britishtrident
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| posted on 31/8/10 at 06:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
People keep saying components are expensive. What components? You can buy a full new fuel system for under 400 quid with perfectly adequate
injectors/vap for the majority of cars? That's injectors, vap, electronics, the works. Most 4 cyl injector rails are ~£100. There's no
petrol injectors that come close to that?
quote:
The BTC Fords run on the latest state of the art liquid phase lpg injection which doesn't displace any noticeable amount air and can
actually gain power from the liquid gas evaporation cooling the inlet charge.
I've been waiting for liquid injection to come of age, last time I checked (6 months or so ago) the general consensus was that it was still a
long way away as injector freezing is a problem, it requires a dedicated high pressure pump etc etc. I wonder if these ford bits can be had elsewhere
or from scrapped cars. Their older gas-phase injection systems were shocking though, so I'm not sure I'd want to go there!
[Edited on 31/8/10 by coyoteboy]
If you know where to look you can find 4 cylinder Valtek type 30 3ohm injector rails for £35.
The latest type 34 are a bit dearer.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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sebastiaan
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| posted on 31/8/10 at 07:05 PM |
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Liquid manifold injection came of age 10 years ago; developed by Gentec (a company created by the university of Gent) for Vialle; a dutch LPG
component manufacturer. Using their technology, a *vast* amount of cars have been built / converted to use LPG. The last generation Ford liquid
injection LPG systems used ICOM parts which are basically crap.
The 100 quid injection rails are also crap; they are either very dissimilar in flowrate within one set (causing bad emissions, bad idle, burnt cats,
etc.), sensitive to flow shifting over their lifespan (causing check engine issues, bad starting, etc). and / or contamination. Steer clear from them
and use quality components from a large scale manufacturer. Prins are one of the best as they use Keihin (=honda) injectors. The others are (in no
particular order)
Landi-Renzo
GFI fuel systems (selling the AG and Necam brands)
BRC
And that's about it....
But, if you do go for a conversion from a reputable manufacturer and have it installed properly you won't have any problems. Go for it!
Sebastiaan
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
People keep saying components are expensive. What components? You can buy a full new fuel system for under 400 quid with perfectly adequate
injectors/vap for the majority of cars? That's injectors, vap, electronics, the works. Most 4 cyl injector rails are ~£100. There's no
petrol injectors that come close to that?
quote:
The BTC Fords run on the latest state of the art liquid phase lpg injection which doesn't displace any noticeable amount air and can
actually gain power from the liquid gas evaporation cooling the inlet charge.
I've been waiting for liquid injection to come of age, last time I checked (6 months or so ago) the general consensus was that it was still a
long way away as injector freezing is a problem, it requires a dedicated high pressure pump etc etc. I wonder if these ford bits can be had elsewhere
or from scrapped cars. Their older gas-phase injection systems were shocking though, so I'm not sure I'd want to go there!
[Edited on 31/8/10 by coyoteboy]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 31/8/10 at 07:21 PM |
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With respect, we've been using cheap-ish injectors in one car for a LONG time with no issues at all, perfectly good emissions (certainly those
checked at MOT) and no drift in tuning (checked with LC-1 after 12 months). The biggest problem I've seen with them is that most can't
deliver the spec they claim, top end flowrate-wise, even with the nozzles correctly sized.
Still never seen liquid phase injection parts for sale anywhere, and every factory car I've seen them on appeared to be gaseous? I've been
looking in the wrong places.
britishtrident - fancy pointing me in that direction? I could do with a system with twin injectors per cyl and at that price I could do it nicely
Fleabay- my god...
[Edited on 31/8/10 by coyoteboy]
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sebastiaan
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| posted on 31/8/10 at 07:54 PM |
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With equal respect; running them in one car says nothing. I've been in the LPG business as a design engineer between 2003 and 2009, so should
know what I'm on about.
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
With respect, we've been using cheap-ish injectors in one car for a LONG time with no issues at all, perfectly good emissions (certainly those
checked at MOT) and no drift in tuning (checked with LC-1 after 12 months). The biggest problem I've seen with them is that most can't
deliver the spec they claim, top end flowrate-wise, even with the nozzles correctly sized.
Still never seen liquid phase injection parts for sale anywhere, and every factory car I've seen them on appeared to be gaseous? I've been
looking in the wrong places.
britishtrident - fancy pointing me in that direction? I could do with a system with twin injectors per cyl and at that price I could do it nicely
Fleabay- my god...
[Edited on 31/8/10 by coyoteboy]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/9/10 at 06:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
britishtrident - fancy pointing me in that direction? I could do with a system with twin injectors per cyl and at that price I could do it nicely
Fleabay- my god...
[Edited on 31/8/10 by coyoteboy]
http://www.autogas-lpg.co.uk/
Run by a guy called Pawel Wilccczynski, reliable but takes about 3 weeks to deliver.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/9/10 at 07:41 AM |
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First of all Prins aftermarket systems are the best and good for 100,000 miles plus without anything other than servicing, this is mainly due to
the quailty of the injectors, sensors and electrical connections.
However the LPG kit market has developped at an amazing rate. Three or four years ago most of the cheaper kits on the market were experiencing cases
premature gas injector failure at around 15,000 miles. This was to a large extent y due to quality and design issues but was mainly triggered by the
sourcing of LPG from eastern europeean supplies which were heavily contaminated with "heavy ends" (i.e. wax and paraffins ) and
particulate matter. Due to design issue Matrix injectors had a particular problem with contaminated gas, while early Valtek & Rail injectors
suffered from burnt out solenoid coils and wear
Since then electrical and material specifications have been improved and the lpg is filtered in both liquid and gas stages and reliability and
longevity has increased greatly. On my car I have a Valtek type 30 which I would expect to last for at least 50,000 miles perhaps a lot more (it
has already covered 20,000 miles without any attention.
In any event replacement injector rails are available for around the same cost as a set of platinum/iridium spark plugs and rebuild kits and
replacement coils are available and simple to fit.
One thing known to increase injector life is to ensure the the gas reaching the injectors is at high temperature at all times.
The problem that exists in all system that use gas injectors is the injectors need to be much physically larger than petrol injectors but need to
operate in the same time window as the petrol injector --- a bit like squaring the circle, particularly on high output engines.
Ford and Vauxhall factory fit dual fuel cars used a different gaseous system which used a gas distributor, these systems have also suffered from
problems caused by contaminated gas which can usually be fixed by flushing out the system with a mixture of thinners and WD40.
A link that may be of interest http://www.ac.com.pl/en/
The PDF manuls for the Stag 300 premium are worth downloading and reading.
http://www.ac.com.pl/en/doc/346/instructions-and-manuals
[Edited on 1/9/10 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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nick205
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| posted on 1/9/10 at 11:04 AM |
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^^^
As I've commented before BT, you seem to have an almost Encyclopaedic Knowledge of things auto related!
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 1/9/10 at 12:15 PM |
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quote:
With equal respect; running them in one car says nothing. I've been in the LPG business as a design engineer between 2003 and 2009, so
should know what I'm on about.
Naturally, single datapoints are not descriptive of the whole, however I was only talking about the one I have personal experience of sorting, not the
many I have seen/talked to owners about. As an engineer also I'm well aware of your concerns of variation and performance change over time,
however for the most part I think the changes fall within acceptable limits. Sure some may have major failings which massive problems. Maybe there are
cheaper ones than I am not aware of that you're talking about, but the ones I've seen appear to be functioning perfectly happily after 30
or 40K, and quite frankly if they needed replacing at 50K that's a very cheap service part.
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