Gergely
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 02:57 PM |
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Disaster! R1 engine failure!
I had one of the worst days of my life... We went to the track to test the car for the first time after two brief test drives. We left with an engine
where one of the pistons broke open the block on the exhaust side... gutted...
Please try and help me find the reason for this. It might be my stupid mistake as well as anything else, but I need to understand what went wrong
before we fit a new engine.
Here are the specs:
2005 R1 engine, sump baffle plate fitted, 4 core aluminium radiator, pipercross airbox kit, Castrol 10W50 4T racing oil, new oil filter, Power
Commander III USB (not properly set up just yet, but to the advice of the Power Commander center we set everything at 0-20% throttle to 0 and
everything above 20% throttle to 10), Koso RX1N instruments.
We started the day with an easy run, not revving too high, but testing the car nontheless for grip and mechanical condition. The water temp. went up
to 85-86 degrees max. The car drove great. But after two laps the clutch started slipping. So we immediately kept a low engine speed and retired to
the pits. We opened the bonnet and there was some, but not much oil inside, coming up to the airbox through one of the breather pipes and dripping
very slightly from the airbox. We figured there was too much oil in the engine - which we anticipated, as we have filled more than the oil level
indicator window on the engine would have suggested. The reason for this was the fact that we could not get rid of the oil level warning light in the
Koso unit using the R1's original feed. (mistake 1, I guess). We figured that the slipping clutch could also be caused by too much oil, so we
lowered it slightly, coming back to the max. indication on the engine peep window. Out on the track again. We have also adjusted the rev counter
setup, as it showed 14.000 when the engine was difinitely not at that sort of speed, maybe more like 9-10.000. I figured I will rev the engine into
the limiter once to see what the instrument shows then and we'll see then. It didn't happen ever. I backed off before I reached the
limiter as the engine speed sounded quite high to me, but I have not found the limiter, and the Koso showed over-revving again, although later this
time. (I have to say that I am no motorbike person, so can not judge by the sound what revs I could have attained). After two laps we were called in
the pits because of an accident. In the pits we waited around 4-5 minutes with the engine running on idle, and the water temp. around 85 degrees.
After the track was clear, we were out again. We have done one lap and a half, when after a quick but fairly long and tight right hander and the
following chicane I accelerated out and heard for a second or max. 2 seconds a slightly more metallic sound to the engine. Like as if the exhaust can
has been placed in a slightly larger metal drum maybe. But by the time I have realised that the sound is different, it was too late, I heard
"krrrrrrr" and there was smoke pouring out the exhaust cutout on the side. We stopped on the side immediately and I lifted the bonnet.
There was oil everywhere, but the water was intact, only steaming a little. But by the time we have been towed back to the pits, all water has
gone.
We lifted the car and there was a hole on the front of the cylinderblock on the exhaust side with the internals visible... end of story I guess...
This is how it happened and here are some more facts:
- The Koso unit remembers the highest recorded water temperature. It was 109 degrees according to it.
- We have a Racetech mechanical oil pressure gauge that unfortunately I was not wathching during the failure itself, but it shows zero when on idle,
and picks up to around 40-60 psi on 3-4.000 revs. On the track, whenever I looked it, it was around 60 psi.
What could have caused the incident, do you reckon?
- Water overheating? - The 109 degrees is high, but not insanely high I guess... unless the water was not circulating in the system.
- Oil overheating? - I don't have an oil temperature gauge, so don't know... but maybe we need an oil cooler?
- Not enough oil? - Doesn't look like too little to me, see above.
- Engine over-revved? - possible, but only if there is no limiter on the R1 engine. We are using the bike ECU with the Power Commander. Can someone
please confirm that the limiter should still work? If there was no limiter, I ruined the engine myself by trying to find the limiter... If there was,
I have definitely not over-revved the engine.
- Sump baffle not effective enough? - It happened on the twistier part of the track, true. But we have only ever driven two laps after each other at
speed, and the baffle plate should prevent exactly this happening...
- Power Commander setting incorrect? - could it be that the above mentioned "safety" map can cause something like this?
- Fuel system not effective enough? - could it be that the engine was not receiving enough fuel for any reason (incorrect pump, filters, etc...)
- Water or oil pumps defective? - could it be that any of the two not functioning could cause this?
Please help me understand what I have messed up. I am over the initial horror, disappointment and hatred against the car and myself, I know that I
have messed up and I am the first to admit that, but I absolutely want to fix the car soon, and have already found a couple of potential engines for
sale, but I want to make sure this doesn't happen next time, too.
The reason I want to fix the car is, that when it drove, it drove like it was on rails, very predictable, very quick and easy to drive. An amazing car
and an otherwise great day that turned to a disaster...
My advice to anyone as excited to bring the car on track as soon as it is finished: Don't do it! We should have sorted out the rev counter, the
oil level lamp first and we should have driven the car a couple of hours at a slow-moderate pace to see if anything shows up in the cooling system or
the engine itself, but we were impatient... here is the result...
Thanks for all your help and support and please help me find the cause!
Gergely
Our build pictures
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Andy B
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 03:12 PM |
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Hi
we experienced this problem early on when we used the 05 R1 in our RGB race cars.
We blew 3 engines one after the other before we found the problem -
Basically the 05/06 R1 is very compact and seems to suffer from high crankcase pressure at first we could not work out why the engine does not spit
its oil out in the bike but we reckon it is because in the cars we are at wide open throttle about 70% more than when riding the bike. Mainly because
we have more grip and stability and are not likely to flip the car!!
To cut a long story short every time we put one on track it blew out its oil and then rodded itself.
I spoke to the racers in the states who told me they either dry sump them or some use a modified breather set up.
We tried the breather mods and so far it seems to have worked.
We fit an additional -10 union to the cam cover, inside the cover we fit a small baffle plate set off the inside surface to stop oil being blown
straight out the hole.
We then feed this extra breather into a catch tank which has the original breather plumbed into the bottom of it.
On the top of the breather tank we fit a small K&N filter , since running this way we have not had the same problems but we are running with a cut
and deepened sump as well.
Hope that helps - if you need more details u2u me
regards
Andy
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Nick Skidmore
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 03:18 PM |
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100% sure it's oil surge. I'll bet it's big end failure / seizure leading to rod breakage.
Removing the oil to the max mark will have done it.
Oil coming out of the breather initially will have been surge but there was still enough in the sump.
Clutch slip could have either absence of oil or loads of oil lurking in the clutch end of the engine. Again due to surge.
Accusump or dry sump to cure.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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mr henderson
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 03:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gergely
I had one of the worst days of my life...
Gergely
You've had a very sheltered life! Be glad!
Follow the advice given, and you should be OK in the future. And cheer up!
John
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Andy B
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 03:35 PM |
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I totally agree with Nick, I think you will need to tackle both the surge and breathing issues and should then be ok.
US firm Taggart do a dry sump system for them, real nice but real pricey. Josh Smith has been using it on his Phoenix R1 racecar trouble free for a
season
regards
Andy
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nitram38
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 04:25 PM |
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Got me worried now 
I have only a baffled 05.
Maybe I'll look out for an accusump to be safe.
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skydivepaul
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 05:06 PM |
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similar thing happened to me.
my car was used mainly for track and race use so not much road use. I used to run with the R1 airbox reversed and the breather still connected. I
found that the airbox would have 1/2" of oil in it after a good run. I disconnected the breather and fed it into a catch tank, didnt stop the
problem but it stopped the oil from giong into the airbox.
One trackday at oulton park the engine went BANG!!!!
main bearing failure, which in turn threw a rod.
I built up a new engine from two bad ones and never had the oil problem with that one.
for some reason my first engine had a build up of crankcase pressure which in turn led to the oil / breather problem?
on inspection of the engine we didnt find anything obvious that could have caused this. One theory was a worn piston ring / bore causing a higher
crankcase pressure.
As said before the bike boys dont have these problems as the engines are ot worked as hard as in a car.
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coozer
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 05:28 PM |
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Gutted for ya, but remember bike engines are not designed for heavy cars. Tey are already at th top of the stress table and the extra weight can be
the breaking factor.
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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swalf3
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 08:04 PM |
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Disaster R1
Andy,When you say an additional -10 union did you plug the two Ais outlets in the cam cover or did you vent those as well?Where abouts on the cam
cover did you fit the -10 union?I run a supercharged R1 (05) in a Caterham which vents the cam cover and a seperate tank for the gearbox breather that
returns the oil to the sump.Over filling the sump did not help as it iust pumped out the extra.Over 1K miles on track days so far so good.Winston
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stuart_g
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| posted on 4/4/09 at 09:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Gutted for ya, but remember bike engines are not designed for heavy cars. Tey are already at th top of the stress table and the extra weight can be
the breaking factor.
Best we all fit heavy engines for our heavy cars then
Gergly, send a U2U to roadrunner they use the 05/06 R1 engine a lot and have the details of the AIS mod they do to their cars, no failures as far as I
know and they are purely used for racing.
If you are using your car for track use and not road I would do their mod.
[Edited on 4/4/09 by stuart_g]
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road warrior
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| posted on 6/4/09 at 01:16 PM |
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Gergely, I have replied to U2U.
Hi Stuart, car looks great mate
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Davey D
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| posted on 7/4/09 at 08:10 AM |
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Has anyone got any info on this breather mod to help reduce any chances of problems?
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Gergely
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| posted on 9/4/09 at 02:39 PM |
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Thanks guys for the information.
I am currently in contact with MNR, Road Warrior and Andy B and hope to find out the reasons and solutions. According to Andy and Road Warrior the
2004-2006 R1 needs breather modifications, otherwise it will fail whatever we do. According to MNR it was probably caused by the engine being
overfilled initially which might have caused a leak and eventually lead to too little oil, oil surge and the failure, but no other modification is
required.
I am still checking with all parties and once the engine is out of the car I might know a little more, but I think we will have to do the breather
modifications to be safe - while also making sure that the engine is not over-filled...
I will keep you posted.
An Internet based car magazine has been at the track day, and they have attached a camera to our car exactly before the failure happened, so there is
video footage of the failure available embedded in the below article. I am - understandably - not too keen on watching it again, but it might be
interesting for you so here it is:
Video + pictures of the engine failure
Gergely
Our build pictures
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stuart_g
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| posted on 9/4/09 at 06:03 PM |
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Excellent video apart from when the engine let go.
I am concerned that this will happen to mine now I think I will do the mod just to be on the safe side as I want to do some trackdays this year.
Just one question, is it just Hungarian's that walk really fast and talk like Donald Duck
[Edited on 9/4/09 by stuart_g]
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Gergely
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| posted on 21/5/09 at 12:10 PM |
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We have spoken to several racers, all of them with slightly different approaches, so here is a combination of their ideas and a seemingly
failure-proof plan:
Link to post in BEC section
Any ideas anyone?
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craigt
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| posted on 21/5/09 at 02:45 PM |
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MNR already know about this problem and have a few customers running what they use to overcome the problem.
have you spoken to them to see what they are using?
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Gergely
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| posted on 21/5/09 at 02:53 PM |
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MNR still say that there are no modifications required other than the baffle plate.
But because the racers I have spoken to have made some modifications, except for one guy, but even he said an oil cooler is vital, I have decided to
follow them and put together a - hopefully - bullet proof plan by combining all the ideas...
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pwl
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| posted on 21/5/09 at 04:37 PM |
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I think that the best solution for that problem would be a dry sump system, they are a bit expensive but will give the engine a bullet proof
lubrication system.
PWL
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nitram38
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| posted on 21/5/09 at 04:39 PM |
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Jon Lee from Lynx AE has been racing his R1 car with an accusump and it has been pretty bulletproof.
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Gergely
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| posted on 26/5/09 at 04:55 AM |
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We have done the modifications that all racers suggested. Here is the brief description:
Remove the cam cover and remove the AIS covers.
 
AIS covers
Remove the reed valves completely, only leave the top metal holder plate (with the rectangular slots)
 
Reed valves
Drill two holes in the cam cover under where the reed valves used to be and block the two exhaust ports using some aluminium inserts or screws...
 
Modified breather
Replace the two rectangular metal plates (without the reed valves), replace the AIS covers (we have put them back upside down) and replace the cam
cover.
 
Completed modification
All that remains now is to connect the breathers with the catch tank and the gearbox breather on the other side of the engine. We didn't have
time to do that yet, maybe this week...
A huge thanks goes to Sonja and Greg (road warrior), Andy Bates at AB performance, and several other RGB racers for their help with the modifications.
All that remains to be seen of course is how these will work, but together with our new oil pressure gauge and warning light, the oil temperature
gauge and light, the planned oil cooler and the optional Accusump, we should be covered. The Accusump is something we will only install if we see
dropping pressures on track.
Gergely
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