orton1966
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 06:24 AM |
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How Can Britain Cope With The Snow?
Whilst I do think we beat ourselves up about our inability to cope with inclement weather I’m sure as a nation we could and should cope better. So in
the best traditions of this forum I thought I would ask what people think we should do to cope better. Here are some of my thoughts:
Compulsory switch to winter tyres for commercials and public sector vehicles I don’t mean studded or M&S tyres but proper winter compound road
tyres. Most of Europe switches to these and it would go a long way to prevent the roads closed because of lorries blocking every hills because they
can’t get up, yes cars struggle and get deserted too but it is harder to weave your way around a stuck or jack-knifed lorry. Switching busses and
other publicly owned vehicles would prevent the debacle in London last winter when the whole bus network was stopped by 20mm of snow and frozen
roads
I know we could go the whole hog and insist everyone changes but if you keep public transport going it keeps more people off the road and if you keep
the goods transport system running it reduces blocked roads
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rf900rush
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 07:05 AM |
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We could easily cope better.
I think one of the big problems is..
People who are responsable for ordering the gritting lorries need a meeting first, but can't get to the meeting because
the roads are not gritted.
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mad4x4
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 07:36 AM |
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I think yes every body should have winter tires. (At least on the driven axle for frond wheel drive cars). THere should be some way of forcing people
who are not confident driving (10-20 mph) in Ice and snow to get off the road. (missiles from behind your headlamps?? may work??).
Other problems are
1) UK insists on Buying a British Leyland style trucks and putting a gritters on the back and a snowplough on the front - Germany use Mercedecs
UNIMOG! with 15" ground Ground Clearence. Then we wonder why our gritters are stuck.....
2) No one in the country uses the lanes on a Motorway correctly (lorries keep to inside and so do cars) in Heavy snow this leads to the
"Fast" lane becoming snow blocked and traffic slows down. Then a lorry gets stuck and hey ho Motor way is blocked.
3) Gritting / Salt. Surely we know it is winter, so why after 1 week do we run out of Salt. Germany, Finland and Norway all mannage to do daily
business.
4) Schools "When I was a Lad"...... But it is true early 80's we were still at school when there was 6" of snow on the
ground. Schools close at snowflake number 1. We were lucky to get a 1/2 snow day never get 5 snow days.
6) Most folk with POSH 4x4's (sorry thoes chelsea Taxis, BMW, Porshe,AUDI) has "street racing Low profile tyres " no wonder they
are getting Stuck...
That 'll do for the moment
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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BigGeoff
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 07:55 AM |
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Agree with all the above - WINTER TYRES are the most important I would also add a good jail term for following too close!!
[Edited on 3/12/10 by BigGeoff]
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jabbahutt
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 07:56 AM |
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Norway has a great idea for keeping the roads clear. Each farmer based on size of farm is allocated a radius around his farm to keep roads clear of
snow. For this he is paid a retainer and is provided with a plough attachment for his tractor and collects grit/salt from a local depot. It provides
valuable income to farmers during the winter and allows them to keep a number of staff employed during the winter who would normally be seasonal
workers only and therefore not have a job.
Cracking idea!!
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 07:56 AM |
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Agree with most of the above to a greater or lesser extent, but the single biggest issue is education. You only have to watch the news with their
dumbed down "drive in 19th gear" and "pack a blanket and some soup" to realise its all gone wrong. The majority of people have
never learned to drive properly on good roads, nevermind in the snow and more worryingly, dont see driving as something they should spend time trying
to imrove.
There are areas of the continent with compulsory skid pan training and minimum off road manoeuvring hours before you get to go out under tuition on
the public highway. TBH, the way people are taught to drive nowadays is just mental, you are taught to park out of gear with the handbrake on, taught
to brake to a junction and not change down progressively amongst a number of other things!
Yes gritters can help but if were honest its not the road conditions at fault in most cases, its car preparation and driver ability.
My Build Thread
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gottabedone
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:11 AM |
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To be honest there are far too many people in this country that can't drive in good weather let alone these conditions
A few thousand miles on the autoroutes in europe would sort most of their crap motorway driving out for starters
Steve
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
6) Most folk with POSH 4x4's (sorry thoes chelsea Taxis, BMW, Porshe,AUDI) has "street racing Low profile tyres " no wonder they
are getting Stuck...
And they are the ones causing accidents due to the 'i have a 4x4 therefor am invincible in the snow' attitude!
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:29 AM |
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I recon a CBT for cars before your allowed on the road (even with L plates) would sort allot of things including (but not limited to)
-clutch control (inc hill starts etc.)
-low manouvering
-compulsory skid pan training
[what else would you add?]
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BigGeoff
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:32 AM |
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alistairolsen wrote
quote:
TBH, the way people are taught to drive nowadays is just mental, you are taught to park out of gear with the handbrake on, taught to brake to a
junction and not change down progressively amongst a number of other things!
This just shows how some that think they know what they are talking about actually don't.
Block gear changing in normal conditions is far safer than "progressive"changing - read the Police Driving manual ! Pupils that take
lessons with good instructors would be taught the difference on showed how to use gears to slowe- which of course we do on snow and ice - but then we
are going a lot slower in the first place so this method is preferable in such circumstances.
Parking - read the DSA's puplications - when there is any kind of incline then pupils are taught the correct gear to leave the car in when
parking and which way to turn the wheels so that if the car does "move" it rolls into the kerb and not down the road.
Not got the time to expand on these two points there is so much more that is relevant though.
HOWEVER - I do agree that in general there are a lot of problems with what is tested - for instance why do we not teach motorway driving and yes skid
pan training should be mandatory as should regular re-training or testing - but that's another argument.
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balidey
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:33 AM |
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Only ONE thing needs to be done.
Unfortunatly an injection of 'common sense' isn't yet available.
Sadly that is the one thing missing from the majority of our population. So doing anything else is pointless.
The point above about big off-roaders (HAHHAHAHAHAHAH) with stupid tyres. That is probably the best example of a lack of common sense. And the people
getting into them think they are invincible.
Same with winter tyres. Great idea, but most people will 'forget' to fit them. Or will drive like they still assume its summer.
Same with all the other options we can come up with.... the 'average' person will not do anything about it. The majority rules. And the
majority are, quite frankly, stupid. The nations biggest selling newspaper is the Sun, surely that tells you we are all doomed.
Dutch bears have terrible skin due to their clogged paws
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Daddylonglegs
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:05 AM |
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Agree with most points covered so far.
Regarding salt/grit, apparently we have loads of the stuff after last year's debacle but the problem is how it's being
managed/distributed.
I must admit, I feel quite strongly about the 'Chelsea Taxi' brigade, because apart from their obvious lack of need for them, most owners
do, as already stated, drive like idiots, and living in the middle of nowhere as we do it is a regular sight with one zooming past in any conditions
assuming they are indestructable and causing more grief for everyone when they realise they are not and get stuck. I also hate the fact that we get
branded with the same iron just because we own a 4x4. The difference is, we need it for horse boxes etc. and also only use it when we need to not to
take little jimmy to school 500metres down the road.
Rant over 
Edit: Sorry, replace jimmy with any Posh name you care to think of - don't want to upset any jimmys out there)
[Edited on 3/12/10 by Daddylonglegs]
It looks like the Midget is winning at the moment......
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daryl
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:06 AM |
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i love this weather its the way a winter should be and would be a lot better if they took most drivers off the road thats bam not drive
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BigGeoff
This just shows how some that think they know what they are talking about actually don't.
Block gear changing in normal conditions is far safer than "progressive"changing - read the Police Driving manual ! Pupils that take
lessons with good instructors would be taught the difference on showed how to use gears to slowe- which of course we do on snow and ice - but then we
are going a lot slower in the first place so this method is preferable in such circumstances.
Parking - read the DSA's puplications - when there is any kind of incline then pupils are taught the correct gear to leave the car in when
parking and which way to turn the wheels so that if the car does "move" it rolls into the kerb and not down the road.
Not got the time to expand on these two points there is so much more that is relevant though.
HOWEVER - I do agree that in general there are a lot of problems with what is tested - for instance why do we not teach motorway driving and yes skid
pan training should be mandatory as should regular re-training or testing - but that's another argument.
Comparing apples with apples (i.e assuming both are carried out correctly, in what way is using the brakes to a stop from 5th, then selecting first
safer than following the speed down through the gears (or at least partially, all 5 is probably excessive!). My point is they are not taught this at
all nowadays in general, you only have to watch people on the brakes in the snow at the moment.
Parking, Im well aware of whats in the literature and also what I was taught. I am also well aware of friends and family experience recently which
does not reflect this in the slightest!
Another one which springs to mind is braking, I was taught what to do in a wheel lockup. In general from what Ive heard the current advice is to apply
the brakes and let the ABS do its job, which I guess is fine if you pass your test and can afford a car with ABS.......
In general the standard of driving tuition in this country is apalling, but then by comparison to our European cousins it is also cheap!
I agree wholeheartedly on motorway tuition and some form of offroad CBT. The current situation of driving around on L plates with your mum/dad/random
driver with potential bad habits before even learning the basics from an instructor is completely nonsensical.
My Build Thread
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lsdweb
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 11:32 AM |
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I agree with all the.comments about tyres and driver training. However as a driver of a 4 wheel drive Audi I.have to defend my choice! Some.of us
choose the combination of four wheel drive and low profile , high performance tyres for performance at speed not for off road capability! For snow I
have a pair of boots and a big freezer :--)
Wyn
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 11:44 AM |
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The way new drivers are taught is bad we are not teaching driving skills but test passing and the situation getting worse because we are
teaching new instructors in a very fixed way to pass the instructors exams.
A good example is roundabouts new drivers are only taught to give way to traffic coming from the left, in the real world roundabouts only work
by drivers cooperate with each other,you can't straight line a roundabout with your foot down just because you have no traffic on your left,
you have to allow for slower moving traffic to your right which is already on or entering the roundabout.
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 11:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The way new drivers are taught is bad we are not teaching driving skills but test passing and the situation getting worse because we are
teaching new instructors in a very fixed way to pass the instructors exams.
A good example is roundabouts new drivers are only taught to give way to traffic coming from the left, in the real world roundabouts only work
by drivers cooperate with each other,you can't straight line a roundabout with your foot down just because you have no traffic on your left,
you have to allow for slower moving traffic to your right which is already on or entering the roundabout.
From the left? right surely? Agree on a little cooperation though!
Once again, the diameter of a roundabout needs to be proportional to the volume of traffic, when they are too small they dont work and you end up with
traffic lights, on a roundabout, which is just mental.
My Build Thread
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fha772
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 12:37 PM |
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1 simple rule, would help a lot, all vehicles should have snowchains, every vehicle i own has a set in the boot/cab.
I can safely say, upto date, i have never been stuck in the snow, in any vehicle, from an Artic to a Mini.
A few years ago when i was lorry driving, the other drivers used to laugh at me for having my own set of snowchains that i would carry in whatever
lorry i was driving.
I was the ONLY driver working for the firm, that never got stuck, or crashed, in the snow.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6743&start=105
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 12:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The way new drivers are taught is bad we are not teaching driving skills but test passing and the situation getting worse because we are
teaching new instructors in a very fixed way to pass the instructors exams.
A good example is roundabouts new drivers are only taught to give way to traffic coming from the left, in the real world roundabouts only work
by drivers cooperate with each other,you can't straight line a roundabout with your foot down just because you have no traffic on your left,
you have to allow for slower moving traffic to your right which is already on or entering the roundabout.
Having been a witness to a minor accident on a roundabout, the traffic copper gave both parties some sound advice... Be prepared to give way to anyone
and everyone at a roundabout. There is no point in crashing just because you had right of way.
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mad4x4
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 12:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lsdweb
I agree with all the.comments about tyres and driver training. However as a driver of a 4 wheel drive Audi I.have to defend my choice! Some.of us
choose the combination of four wheel drive and low profile , high performance tyres for performance at speed not for off road capability! For snow I
have a pair of boots and a big freezer :--)
Wyn
"performance at speed" - So you do hundreds of Miles on Autobanes in Germany and racetracks or Rallying in your spare time......
Speed Limit in the UK on the fasted Road in 70MPH and those are motorways, no need to coner a high speeds on them. Or is it country lanes that you
prefer driving down them at 60 MPH into a harepin and BANG you meet a tractor...... Roads no-where in Britian justify a 4x4 Performance Car to
navigate them. All Roads be it A road or Motorway can be driven by a 900cc SMART at the speed limt
In business we hear about items being fit for purpose, I drive a 4x4 because I need 1 for towing (of an offroad trialer) and to get up to the house in
winter. I wouldn't put Low Profiles and 22" alloys on it no point it would be unsuitable. If I wanted a "perfomance car"
i'd go an buy one designed for that function i.e fit for purpose : Mazda RX8, Lotus Elise.... Audi RS8, Focus ST etc...... Similary if I was
buy a new 4x4 I would by one fit for purpose Defender, Hilux, Discovery, Shogun.
I wouldn;t but a "Chealse Taxi" (BMW, Audi, Porshe) as you can't even get a "Winter" tyre for these..
Why do the Manufactures produce these aboninations and call them "4x4"
Sorry for the RANT, don;t get me started
[Edited on 3/1212/10 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 01:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The way new drivers are taught is bad we are not teaching driving skills but test passing and the situation getting worse because we are
teaching new instructors in a very fixed way to pass the instructors exams.
A good example is roundabouts new drivers are only taught to give way to traffic coming from the left, in the real world roundabouts only work
by drivers cooperate with each other,you can't straight line a roundabout with your foot down just because you have no traffic on your left,
you have to allow for slower moving traffic to your right which is already on or entering the roundabout.
From the left? right surely? Agree on a little cooperation though!
Once again, the diameter of a roundabout needs to be proportional to the volume of traffic, when they are too small they dont work and you end up with
traffic lights, on a roundabout, which is just mental.
Brain fade phone kept bring in the middle of posting -- extended family can't start their cars after leaving them covered in snow for a week.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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sonic
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 01:22 PM |
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I agree with the above.
We have had very little snow really over the last ten years and it is only really this year that we have had more than the norm,with regards to snow
tyres who will fit them?
Here is the reality
Weather forecast says snow on monday next week so the average joe public thinks oh i better get myself to the local garage and get then to change my
wheels £££££ as they don't know how to do it!
Monday comes and guess what the forecasters have got it wrong! no snow in site!
Now snow tyres don't handle very well in rain or dry condition and wear very quickly,oh dear back to the garage to have them swopped back
££££.
A week later it snows and we are all stuck!!!.
I cannot see what all the fuss is about if you can drive and are sensible about your abilities,i am driving a Lexus IS200 at present rear wheel drive
half worn everyday tyres and we have 2ft of snow in the village and compact snow/ice underneath,never got stuck yet or lost the backend or had any
major moments at all.
People say that rear wheel drive are bad in snow/ice/rain etc yes they are if you provoce them and drive like a tw-t.
Its all about education about driving and knowing your car,people with 4 wheel drive need to realise that they are great for getting you moving from a
standing start,but then they are not much better than a standard car at stopping and handling.
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BenB
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 02:06 PM |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-11908583
OMG WTF
The reason we can't deal with snow is because as a country we're shite. People go outside in completely inappropriate clothes, the schools
take the wee (they close at the drop of a hat, meaning that parents have to stay at home to look after the kids), the gritting service is utterly
rubbish.
Then again, we haven't got so much snow down here in London cos all the hot air from Whitehall heats up the place.... and then there's the
steaming bullshit that comes out of no10...
Surely it just takes a bit of preparation? Mid-autumn I got well stocked: thermal clothes, balaclava, spare shovel, bought a load of grit, adjusted
tyres. No problems. Drive to work is taking 10% longer than normal but hey....
Last weekend drove to the flying field and flew my r/c plane. Only -2 . I was toasty warm! Only other flyer was a Russian bloke who says this is
nothing and that we're a load of small cats (well, that's almost the word he used).
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 02:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Surely it just takes a bit of preparation? Mid-autumn I got well stocked: thermal clothes, balaclava, spare shovel, bought a load of grit, adjusted
tyres. No problems. Drive to work is taking 10% longer than normal but hey....
I think your preaching to the converted as far as most folk on this site are concerned
I wasn't as prepared as I'd have liked, but I don't think I'm doing to badly....
*winter tyres - check (well decent 'all season' M&S ones at least)
*shovel in the car - check
*grit / snow chains - no, but I'm still managing (although I've had to deploy the shovel for parking a few times...)
and the usual first aid kit, fire extinguisher etc....
as for clothes/personal kit I think I've gone a bit OTT
*warm jacket
*waterproofs
*extra down jacket
*hat
*balaclava
*ski goggles
*head torch
*warm gloves x2
*ice axe
*foil/space blanket things
crampons untill yesterday (my good boots that they fit are off getting fixed  )
and loads of other survival odd and ends….. (I just chucked all my hill walking gear in the car)
[Edited on 3/12/2010 by mcerd1]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 03:03 PM |
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I bought a set of Swedish no-slip ice-spikes (cleats / grips / crampons) on eBay (end time 23-Dec-10 22:43:22 GMT) last
winter... and used them for the first time today! As the car-centric little town I work in called Shenfield (Essex) always clear the roads but leave
the pavements covered in thick and lumpy ice, they came in very useful. They are cheap and cheerful, and there are better ones, but none this
cheap.
The difference in Copenhagen was significant - apparently they get surprised by snow every year just like us but, despite that, every pavement was
swept clear and gritted. It was fairly easy to walk around the business area I was in.
As for getting prepared - I had all my winter clothes on today, heavy hiking boots (with those grips), thick socks, gloves, & hat. I also had a
shovel and broom in the car (the broom is for clearing loose snow off the car). The best bit was the heated windscreen on my Focus - after a minute
or so the frozen snow just slid off the glass. Magic!
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