jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 09:33 AM |
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Garage poor workmanship? Advice Needed
Hi all,
As per the title I am after some advice. To give you some background, my focus (2001, 66k) recently developed a drone from the offside rear, typical
wheel bearing noise. It should be noted that there was little or no noticeable play, just the noise and a roughnes when the wheel was rotated by hand.
Figured I may as well do the lot, bearings, drums, wheel cylinders and shoes. So I sourced all the parts, including a pair of drums with the bearings
already pressed in.
Did the job on the weekend and this is what i found when I took the old drum off:
[img]
 
OSR Stub Axle
[/img]
(Obvously I had also taken off the shoes at this point)
The first thing I noticed was what appeared to be a wear mark on the cylindrical, non threaded, part of the stub axle. First thought was that the
inner race had been slipping, but there was no correspinding marks on the inside if the inner race. Then I spotted the grooves on the shoulder and the
mounting plate. This is the vew from the front:
[img]
 
OSR Stub Axle_2
[/img]
Notice the same groove onthe axle and accompanying mark on the shoulder and mounting plate.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong but to me this is the witness marks from someone cutting of the inner race of the wheel bearing with an angle
grinder, then trying to tidy up the damage and causing what I had thought was a wear mark.
This car has been in my family, or extended family since brand new. I have 99% of the service records and know it has been going to the same garage
for years. I haven't got all the paperwork with me but know the rear bearing have never been replaced. However, I am pretty sure the rear brake
shoes have been replaced in the past. My theory is that when replacing the shoes, rather than remove the axle and drum as a unit by undoing the stub
axle bolt from behind, the garage has undone the hub nut, pulled the drum off and the bearing has split, as is known to happen. Then, rather than
using a puller on the inner race they have attacked it with an angle grinder.
So, having found this I had little choice but to proceed with the job as I needed four wheels back on my car. Having put the new parts on, I have
notced a judder whilst driving. Turns out I have loads of play on the OSR wheel bearing. This could be a faulty bearing but could it be becasue the
stub axle is worn and doesn't provide a good fit for the bearing?
Have I got any come back from the garage? I don't know how long ago the work would have been done but can find out.
From the poiunt of view of fixing it, if I replace the stub axle can I re-use the new bearing ir will it be too damaged so should replace it again?
Thanks in advance, sorry for the long post.
Rich
ETA: Until I got the car about 6 months ago, no private work was ever done to this car. Local garage only.
[Edited on 3/4/12 by jamesbond007ltk]
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nib1980
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 09:50 AM |
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i'd say you have no proof they did it, and its there word vs theirs, and as you just did the last piece of work they'll claim it was you
that did it.
good luck
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 09:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nib1980
i'd say you have no proof they did it, and its there word vs theirs, and as you just did the last piece of work they'll claim it was you
that did it.
good luck
Yup, afraid it is looking that way :-(
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r1_pete
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 10:23 AM |
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I doubt you'd get anywhere with the Garage, just chalk it up to experience and their loss of a family customer.
Scrappies must be full of Focus parts, I wouldn't think they'll cost much.
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JAMSTER
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 10:52 AM |
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get Q to sort it lol
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adithorp
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 11:16 AM |
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From the picture, yes it looks like it was done cutting the inner race off. Never had one siezed on a Focus (tight, yes), though I have heard of it
and cutting is often the best way (if it's too tight for a puller). It should only need one cut though, not quite all the way through and then a
sharp blow with hammer and chissel to split it. Done in a spiral and it won't mark the stub at the back. Your's is a butcher job! If
I'd needed to do that then I'd have told you the problem first and the risk to the stub and charged for the bearing (and stub if needed).
Can you absolutly garrentee that nobody else has had a go themselves instead of taking it to the garage? Afterall, you just have... and if you can,
can you proove it? Is there no chance it was taken to another garage at some time? (when on holiday maybe?). It's also unlikely that something
that could have happened 10 years ago will be remembered so the garage are unlikely to hold there hands up to it. Chances are it was done by an
under-supervised apprentice who won't be there now. No excuse but it happens. You'd have to be a pretty good customer before I'd say
"Don't think we did that, don't know how it happened... but I'll sort it at my expence anyway".
As long as the stub has been cleaned up so the new inner race sits flush then it shouldn't effect bearing wear (or result in play, so look for
something you've done wrong or the incorrect replacement bearing for that) as the inner race doesn't move on the shaft and is clamped firm
when the hub nut is tight. The groove does provide a stress riser though where failure of the stub could occur, but I suspect they are over speced by
quite a bit; So not good practice to leave it but you'd be unlucky to get a failure. The cut will also effect the inner seal and early Focus
bearings were known to fail due to poor seals anyway due to water ingress; For that it should be changed.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 11:47 AM |
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I thought those pics looked familiar.... I just had mine apart the other week (leaking wheel cylinders on mine this time  )
although mines done nearly double the miles that yours has (2001, 119k)
quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
Now, correct me if I'm wrong but to me this is the witness marks from someone cutting of the inner race of the wheel bearing with an angle
grinder, then trying to tidy up the damage and causing what I had thought was a wear mark....
.... the garage has undone the hub nut, pulled the drum off and the bearing has split, as is known to happen. Then, rather than using a puller on the
inner race they have attacked it with an angle grinder.......
from the photo's thats what I'd think has happend, for the record I've had to use a grinder to take a bearing of plenty of times
(girn it down to very thin, then cold chisel to crack it) and I'm very, very careful not to make an arse of it....
but I've never had one like this on the focus (or any of my other cars with rear drums for that matter....)
quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
My theory is that when replacing the shoes, rather than remove the axle and drum as a unit by undoing the stub axle bolt from
behind...
I've never ever had my sube axles off, and I don't want to try  (I'm betting the bolts would shear or round off
the heads at least)
and I have my drums off my car about every 5k or 10k to check and adjust them (its amazing how much better the car feels on the road when the
handbrake adjustment is just right  )
the hub nuts are no big deal, you just need a 30mm socket, torque wrench that can do 235Nm and a spare pair of hub nuts (they say they can be used 5
times or something like that, but I find they fall apart after about 3 times)
the dust covers always end up a little bent, but 10 seconds on the anvil and they are good to go again
its a much easier job than taking the stub axles off
quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
So I sourced all the parts, including a pair of drums with the bearings already pressed in
I got mine with the bearings in too - saves a bit of hassle (even though I've got the use of a 30tonne press)
they came from ford and somehow worked out £10 cheaper than buying them seperatly from the local motor factor
[edit]
what adithorp said - he's obviously faster on the keybord than me 
[Edited on 3/4/2012 by mcerd1]
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 01:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
I doubt you'd get anywhere with the Garage, just chalk it up to experience and their loss of a family customer.
Scrappies must be full of Focus parts, I wouldn't think they'll cost much.
Thanks Pete,
Will have a look about at the weekend. Just not sure if I should replace the bearing again to be sure, in case it has been damaged or is faulty, or if
it will be OK.
Rich
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 01:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JAMSTER
get Q to sort it lol
Love the reference. Would do but he is working on my Aston :-)
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 01:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Can you absolutly garrentee that nobody else has had a go themselves instead of taking it to the garage? Afterall, you just have... and if you can,
can you proove it? Is there no chance it was taken to another garage at some time? (when on holiday maybe?). It's also unlikely that something
that could have happened 10 years ago will be remembered so the garage are unlikely to hold there hands up to it. Chances are it was done by an
under-supervised apprentice who won't be there now. No excuse but it happens. You'd have to be a pretty good customer before I'd say
"Don't think we did that, don't know how it happened... but I'll sort it at my expence anyway".
I have no proof of it, no, but the records I have are thorough and the previous owner(s) step brother and step dad are not ones to not file things
away. I haven't mentioned it to my step father as he did give me the car for nothing, so don't want to come across ungrateful. He
doesn't use the garage anymore so no concern there.
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
As long as the stub has been cleaned up so the new inner race sits flush then it shouldn't effect bearing wear (or result in play, so look for
something you've done wrong or the incorrect replacement bearing for that) as the inner race doesn't move on the shaft and is clamped firm
when the hub nut is tight. The groove does provide a stress riser though where failure of the stub could occur, but I suspect they are over speced by
quite a bit; So not good practice to leave it but you'd be unlucky to get a failure. The cut will also effect the inner seal and early Focus
bearings were known to fail due to poor seals anyway due to water ingress; For that it should be changed.
Have had it all apart since and could find noting wrong. Everything was cleaned meticulously before reassembly, torqued up corectly, but there is
still play. I see what you mean about the inner race and am beginning to wonder if the axle dmage is just a red herring to what actually is a
faulty/incorrect bearing.
Meant to mention the seal in my first post. Have to be honest and admit that I didn't realise this until I'd completed the job and
re-examined the old drums/bearings and then had a Google today. Ford started fitting the sealing rings 06/2001. My car was built around 07-08/2001
from memory. The rubber part of the sealing rings, that is pressed on to the stub axle, was and is present on both sides (as can be seen on the O/S in
the picture above). However, the steel ring that gets pressed into the drum behind the bearing was only present on the N/S. So the side with the
problems appears to have either had a replacement bearing, and had the sealing ring omitted, or had a replacement drum off an older Focus.
Offside:
 
OSR_Wheel_Bearing
Nearside:
 
NSR_Wheel_Bearing_2
Edited to change second photo to cropped version
[Edited on 3/4/12 by jamesbond007ltk]
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 02:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
....or had a replacement drum off an older Focus.
or a pattern part from the motorfactors - I've found they tend not to get updated when
ford update the parts
case in point is the front anti-roll bar drop links - the old stlye alloy ones are crap and I was only getting 8k out of the £15 ones from the
motorfactor (I checked several times that they were the right ones)
the newer steel ones are a few mm longer still dont last long enough (fitted on the facelifted models)
but it turns out that ford now make a steel one that replaces both types (for nearly £50 each ) but so far they have lasted 4 times longer than the
alloy ones so.....
btw my focus still had the old style seals at 90k with no issues, I only replaced them becuse the drums had nearly had it
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 02:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
....or had a replacement drum off an older Focus.
or a pattern part from the motorfactors - I've found they tend not to get updated when
ford update the parts
case in point is the front anti-roll bar drop links - the old stlye alloy ones are crap and I was only getting 8k out of the £15 ones from the
motorfactor (I checked several times that they were the right ones)
the newer steel ones are a few mm longer still dont last long enough (fitted on the facelifted models)
but it turns out that ford now make a steel one that replaces both types (for nearly £50 each ) but so far they have lasted 4 times longer than the
alloy ones so.....
btw my focus still had the old style seals at 90k with no issues, I only replaced them becuse the drums had nearly had it
Did you replace the seals? As in the rubber part on the stub axle and the metal ring in the back of the hub?
Where did you get the parts from? Just called my local Ford Dealership's Parts+ department and they had no clue what I was talking about. I was
under the impression you could buy the two parts of the seal as a kit, which was what they retro fitted on the early models. Have I got this very
wrong?
Thanks
Rich
[Edited on 3/4/12 by jamesbond007ltk]
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/4/12 at 03:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
Did you replace the seals? As in the rubber part on the stub axle and the metal ring in the back of the hub?
Where did you get the parts from? Just called my local Ford Dealership's Parts+ department and they had no clue what I was talking about. I was
under the impression you could buy the two parts of the seal as a kit, which was what they retro fitted on the early models. Have I got this very
wrong?
yeah the ford dealers up here are useless too - I go in get them to pull up my car on the screen then point at the bits I want....
I only found out that ford had changed the parts because I got new drums from them and they came with the bearings and seals already fitted -
I've no idea if you can get them seperatly or not (sorry)
but since my car got ~90k out of the old style set I wouldn't worry too much about the type of seals as long as they arn't damaged...
[Edited on 3/4/2012 by mcerd1]
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 17/4/12 at 08:58 AM |
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Just a quick update on this. I went back to the shop where I bought all the parts and explained there was excessive play in one of the bearings. They
were very helpful and agreed to send out a replacement hub c/w bearing. In the meantime I got a replacement stub axle off a scrapped car, that had no
signs off wear or damage as above. Fitted the new hub and axle at the weekend. Zero noise and/or play from the offside rear!!
Good news, however, now the nearside rear is beginning to hum and there is noticeable movement when the wheel is rocked. OK so it is less than a mm,
but surely I should feel no movement at all??
So where do I go next? I could go back to the shop again and get a replacement hub/bearing for the other side (if they will replace this time), fit
it, but then end up in the exact same situation again!
In retrospect I should have gone to Ford as you can get a hub c/w bearing for £60, but I have paid out on the ones I have now. I wonder if the best
route would be to get a genuine, or at least better known quality, bearing from Ford or a factor and get a garage to press in the new one to the hubs
I've just bought (or do both sides while I am at it).
ETA: I think the damaged stub axle was a red herring, as suggested above.
What do you guys think?
Is it me or the bearings?????
Rich
[Edited on 17/4/12 by jamesbond007ltk]
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mcerd1
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| posted on 17/4/12 at 10:18 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
Good news, however, now the nearside rear is beginning to hum and there is noticeable movement when the wheel is rocked. OK so it is less than a mm,
but surely I should feel no movement at all??
that doesn't sound right  back in the old days of adjustable bearings you'd want feel just the smallest amount of movement...
but on my focus I can hardly feel anything at all (with new bearings and drums form ford, new hub nuts preperly torqued, no damage to stub axles
etc...) and I deffinatly don't get any noise from them
its still worth checking the basics first though (the hub nut still tight etc....)
the other question is how were your new bearings fitted, any chance they were damaged by being pressed in incorrectly ?
[Edited on 17/4/2012 by mcerd1]
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 17/4/12 at 10:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
Good news, however, now the nearside rear is beginning to hum and there is noticeable movement when the wheel is rocked. OK so it is less than a mm,
but surely I should feel no movement at all??
that doesn't sound right back in the old days of adjustable bearings you'd want feel just the smallest amount of movement...
but on my focus I can hardly feel anything at all (with new bearings and drums form ford, new hub nuts preperly torqued, no damage to stub axles
etc...) and I deffinatly don't get any noise from them
its still worth checking the basics first though (the hub nut still tight etc....)
the other question is how were your new bearings fitted, any chance they were damaged by being pressed in incorrectly ?
[Edited on 17/4/2012 by mcerd1]
You've raised a very valid question there. I am led to beleive the new bearings were pressed in by the shop I bought the parts from. However,
they are also a garage so would hope they would do a proper job. So unless the bearings are a cheap immitation part perhaps the pressing is to
blame.
When i changed the bearing/drum at the weekend it was torqued correctly and i also checked the torque on the other side. No adidtional tightening was
needed. Unless my brand new torque wrench has lost its calibration!!! No reason to suspect that though adn its not like it clicks at what feels like a
low torque. The 235Nm cetainly feels alot!! :-)
Rich
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mcerd1
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| posted on 17/4/12 at 11:28 AM |
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235Nm doesn't feel like much to me, but then I have to borrow my dad's 'slightly' bigger wrench to go over 200Nm 
 
Torque !
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 17/4/12 at 12:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
235Nm doesn't feel like much to me, but then I have to borrow my dad's 'slightly' bigger wrench to go over 200Nm
Torque !
Love it!!! :-) Could have done with that myself!
Only problem would be though, not having really long arms I wouldn't be able to torque it while "turning the hub in the opposite
direction", as per Mr Haynes. Not sure if it makes much or indeed any difference but thought I should do everything by the book.
Looking at your photo again I am now even more jealous. Car ramps!!!! Been after a set for years but could never justify it. Ironically I am now
moving from a workshop with plenty of headroom for ramps to a standard height domestic garage. No ramps for me now :-( but loads more lateral space!!
:-)
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mcerd1
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| posted on 17/4/12 at 01:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jamesbond007ltk
Only problem would be though, not having really long arms I wouldn't be able to torque it while "turning the hub in the opposite
direction", as per Mr Haynes. Not sure if it makes much or indeed any difference but thought I should do everything by the book.
never been to bothered with that bit and never had any issues (~40,000 miles since the first time I had them off and counting)
the ramp and the shed its in arn't mine, but I can use them when my dad's not using them.
the ramp was quite cheap as its not up to the modern health and saftey standards, but there is nothing wrong with it really
[Edited on 17/4/2012 by mcerd1]
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