bi22le
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| posted on 9/6/13 at 10:38 PM |
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I can tow my car without a B+E licence but I cant find a trailer to hire!!!
No I am looking at a few track days further away I really dont want to drive my car, on track tyres, to the circuit if its a few hours away. Limited
tools, limited comfort for the journey and no possibility of the wife and kid coming. I also have a company car with free diesel and want to use
it!!
I have read this from the gov website which applies to me:
Licences held from 1 January 1997:
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:
a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to
4,250kg in total)
OR
a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in
total)
Combined with this info from Pistonheads:
FOR B LICENCES
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B
only licence -
To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:-
Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?
Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?
Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?
Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....
Towing vehicle -
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800
Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)
Load trailer with 700 max
Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800
I have a 59 plate Focus estate with a max tow weight of 1200kg. Essentially I need a light weight trailer with a Gross weight of 1200kg or less as
this is the max tow weight of my car. The trailer itself needs to weigh less than about 600kg as my car weighs around 600kg.
As if this was not hard enough I want to hire one in the Dartford area cheaply!!!
I recon there may be trailers out there but I cant find any. There is no benifit of me doing my B+E licence becasue the tow weight of my car is only
1200kg.
The questions:
1) Can I use a trailer with a larger gross weight than the tow car even if the actual weight is under the max tow weight?
2) Does the above seem correct?
3) It seems wrong that I have a modern diesel car and cant tow a light weight car on a trailer but is this the case?
Thanks for the help peeps, sorry for the long post.
Biz
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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olimarler
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| posted on 9/6/13 at 10:58 PM |
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Bit of a journey GTI towing in potters bar!!
Use them a lot very good service
Oli
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mark chandler
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| posted on 9/6/13 at 11:07 PM |
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That is a long post.
Most small trailers that could carry your car will be significantly less than 600kg so I would not worry about that aspect.
Cannot help on trailer hire local to you, can you club together with someone and share a trailer and parking costs?
Or do what someone else has done on here, make a T frame and turn your car into a trailer, you could easily dismantle this and keep out the back.
Regards Mark
[Edited on 9/6/13 by mark chandler]
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phelpsa
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| posted on 9/6/13 at 11:48 PM |
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If you take the trailer test then you can tow with any trailer as long as the actual mass of the trailer is not more than the rated towing
capacity.
If you do not then the maximum allowed mass of the trailer cannot be more than the unladen mass of the car.
So basically, you're limited to a trailer with a MAM of 1200kgs unless you take your trailer test, in which case you can tow any trailer as long
as it isn't actually loaded above 1200kgs.
I spent ages trying to work out how I could tow legally on my B license by replating trailers and picking specific cars. Turned out the easiest way
was to take the trailer test (a few hours training and the test cost £400).
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number-1
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 01:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Or do what someone else has done on here, make a T frame and turn your car into a trailer, you could easily dismantle this and keep out the back.
Regards Mark
[Edited on 9/6/13 by mark chandler]
Do you know where the post is on this....its something i could use myself.
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spiderman
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 02:08 AM |
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Also check your company car insurance to check you are covered to tow a trailer.
Spider
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iank
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 05:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by number-1
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Or do what someone else has done on here, make a T frame and turn your car into a trailer, you could easily dismantle this and keep out the back.
Regards Mark
[Edited on 9/6/13 by mark chandler]
Do you know where the post is on this....its something i could use myself.
See this post http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=171960
The government pdf posted by matt_claydon has moved to here:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_200824.pdf
It's one of those issues that always seems to explode into a discussion on whether it's actually legal or not.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 05:45 AM |
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the trailer weight is not the actual weight, it is always the maximum weight. So if the plate says 1500kg, that is what it is (even if the trailer
weighs 250kg and is empty)
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daniel mason
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 06:23 AM |
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does this mean the combined weight of the trailer and car (on the trailer) must not exceed the weight of the tow car?
but a maximum combined weight of 3500kgs?
so if a 1750kg car you could tow 1750kg combined?
if so. most trailers and kits should be ok?
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Davey D
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 07:20 AM |
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The car/trailer combo i have is perfect for this, as i have the post '97 licence.
My car is a volvo v50 with a kerb weight of 1500kg, a gross weight of 1950kg, and a maximum train weight of 3450kg. meaning i can have a trailer up
1500kg gross
My Ifor williams car trailer is gross weight of 1400kg, and an unladen weight of 400kg meaning i can put upto 1000kg on the trailer
Only problem is we are eventually looking to change to a bigger estate like a V70, but since it has a gross of around 2300kg i won't be able to
legally pull my trailer until i take my trailer test as that will add upto 3700kg 
Something that is reeeeally annoying is i also have a transit connect which has a higher gross weight than my volvo at 2080kg, but the maximum train
weight is 2880kg, meaning that it can only bloody pull an 800kg trailer... grrrrr
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mark chandler
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 07:23 AM |
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The links above are discussing A frames and dollies, I said T frame to distinguish.
Okay, let me describe what I mean, imagine a car placed upon a a bed less trailer, so hitch affixed to 10' of 3" x 3" box which runs
down the centre of the car to the balance point.
At the balance point across the cars width 5' of 3" x 3" box forming a T, this carries the braked trailer suspension units and
wheels (brakes not required as total package loaded is under 750kg) just have some brackets so you can break this down.
You then just drop the car on top of this and strap down (you would probally need to positively locate so some bits of strip steel that bolt to the
car to stop it floating around) the car is now a two wheel trailer, like a boat trailer really.
To accomadate sumps then just have rubber blocks packing out the car where it touches the frame, I would look at something like classic range rover
bump stops.
In reality you would make this so it can break down at the join and store in the house, to fit the car assemble on the ground under the car without
the wheels fitted, then jack up and bolt on the wheels, trailer board and off you go.
So box & http://www.towingandtrailers.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_TK055SU10M&category=302 add another £150 for braked,
which would be my preference.
Or cut down something like this Galvanised Roller Boat Trailer With Winch Catherdral Dory Flat Bottom Speed Boat | eBay
Regards Mark
[Edited on 10/6/13 by mark chandler]
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Slimy38
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 07:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
In reality you would make this so it can break down at the join and store in the house, to fit the car assemble on the ground under the car without
the wheels fitted, then jack up and bolt on the wheels, trailer board and off you go.
So box & http://www.towingandtrailers.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_TK055SU10M&category=302 add another £150 for braked,
which would be my preference.
Regards Mark
[Edited on 10/6/13 by mark chandler]
That seems a whole load of faff at the destination though? But I have to admit I'm not properly visualising it. For example, By the sounds of it
the front of the car would be resting on the centre bar, but what would stop it from sliding off at the first corner? Or is that the strip steel you
mentioned?
I don't suppose you could offer a Google image link so I could understand your idea? 'A picture paints a thousand words' and all
that?
I have a feeling last time I had my bike towed they used something similar to what you're describing, but obviously a bike has a
'centre' which makes the t frame work better.
[Edited on 10/6/13 by Slimy38]
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nick205
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 08:00 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by spiderman
Also check your company car insurance to check you are covered to tow a trailer.
To expand on this, for completeness, you should also check the lease company's Ts & Cs. Having used several lease companies at work, some
are happy for you to fit a tow bar and tow subject to correct insurance being in place. One company we used didn't specify whether you could
tow or not, but did specify that the car was not to be altered in any way from how it was delivered.
When checking the insurance, make sure you get a copy of the certificate and full Ts & Cs. My employer always provided these as a matter of
course, but some don't unless you ask for them.
Finally, you may or may not know, but it's usually cheap and quick to use a public weighbridge and there's plenty of them around. Might
be worth double checking your laden weights with any given trailer, just to be sure.
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Neadles
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 08:00 AM |
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I have struggled with this issue of late. The problem is the only trailer that can be used is a single axle or a twin axle that is plated to a MAM of
around 1300kg because that's usually the max on a single axle. Now the problem is that most hire places have twin axle 2500kg MAM trailers so as
not to limit their business opportunities. You will struggle to find a company that will meet your needs as I did, the only options are;
1. Borrow a small trailer.
2. Get some one to come with you like your parents, they can sit in the passenger seat as long as you use 'L' plates and tell your
insurance company, I even know people using their grandparents with a driving license!
3. By a trailer or hire a small transporter truck.
But now the law has changed again from Jan this year which has scrapped all this MAM stuff and as long as you don't exceed 3500kg now its free
rein what a bloody con!
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mazie
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 08:43 AM |
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Wayne mate you should of asked me about the trailer, I hired one from a place in old bexley, £50 a day for a twin axle braked unit. Ill try and
remember what they were called. The garage said to me that I was on the limit of towing weight, us our little 1600 diesels may puff out! It's
only South Wales so not a big drive mate!
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loggyboy
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 08:48 AM |
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I love that I passed 4 months before that cut off date. The back of my license is full to bursting without having done more than pass a normal test 
Mistral Motorsport
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puma931
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 08:56 AM |
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See page 2 in this link
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=169595&page=2
plus my pics in my archive.
 
quote:
Originally posted by number-1
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Or do what someone else has done on here, make a T frame and turn your car into a trailer, you could easily dismantle this and keep out the back.
Regards Mark
[Edited on 9/6/13 by mark chandler]
Do you know where the post is on this....its something i could use myself.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 09:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
In reality you would make this so it can break down at the join and store in the house, to fit the car assemble on the ground under the car without
the wheels fitted, then jack up and bolt on the wheels, trailer board and off you go.
So box & http://www.towingandtrailers.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_TK055SU10M&category=302 add another £150 for braked,
which would be my preference.
Regards Mark
[Edited on 10/6/13 by mark chandler]
That seems a whole load of faff at the destination though? But I have to admit I'm not properly visualising it. For example, By the sounds of it
the front of the car would be resting on the centre bar, but what would stop it from sliding off at the first corner? Or is that the strip steel you
mentioned?
I don't suppose you could offer a Google image link so I could understand your idea? 'A picture paints a thousand words' and all
that?
I have a feeling last time I had my bike towed they used something similar to what you're describing, but obviously a bike has a
'centre' which makes the t frame work better.
[Edited on 10/6/13 by Slimy38]
It's a bit of faffing about, it does give a single cost and easy storage benefits (Bi22le parks out the front of his house with limited room),
it takes a long time to collect and return a trailer so 10 minutes fitting up before towing over a whole day is not much.
To stop it floating straps would not be enough, you would need to clamp the car so front tow eye down hard to the 3" box and either side of the
body, maybe flat bar or box from the the trailer wheels mountings to the rear towing eye to locate the rear, have a socket affair for the long length
to plug into the axle beam with a bolt to fix in place and a strap over the top to stop it bouncing.
Workable and cheap, the ideal is a trailer so as space be comes available you could add a bed
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 09:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
does this mean the combined weight of the trailer and car (on the trailer) must not exceed the weight of the tow car?
but a maximum combined weight of 3500kgs?
so if a 1750kg car you could tow 1750kg combined?
if so. most trailers and kits should be ok?
Sort of. But geerally the car has a maximum towing weight about a third less than the maximum car weight. You need to check the specs in the car
manual...
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mark chandler
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 09:04 AM |
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Pictures ^^^ 
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 09:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neadles
But now the law has changed again from Jan this year which has scrapped all this MAM stuff and as long as you don't exceed 3500kg now its free
rein what a bloody con!
That applies to people who pass their test after jan this year, I think. Not very clear:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow
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bi22le
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 10:45 AM |
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After a less tired re read of this I think a few of ypu may be right in that I can actually tow upto the ford focus kerb weight.
Regardless of the MAM weight as it will be over 750kg.
So I am now thinkibg that I can use any trailer as long as trailer weight+car weight does not exceed kerb or tow weight. Which it hopefully wont.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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mcerd1
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 11:19 AM |
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only if you changed the plate on the trailer so it quoted a MAM thet was less than the tow car
as its all worked out on the plated MAM, not whats on the trailer at that moment in time
so you need a trailer with a plate showing a MAM < the tow vehicle kerb weight
so if you want to tow over 750kg MAM you need to satisfy the following:
MAM trailer <= kerb weight of tow vehicle AND MAM trailer + MAM tow Vehicle <= 3500kg
also regardless of the type/size of trailer you can't exceed the tow vehicles braked or unbraked towing limits
i.e. it might only be a 750kg trailer, but if the car is only rated for 400kg unbraked - then the trailer must have brakes!
[Edited on 10/6/2013 by mcerd1]
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scimjim
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 11:28 AM |
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The LAW says you (bi22le) can tow a braked trailer up to the vehicle kerb weight (as long as it doesn't exceed 3500Kg) - this is MAX and with no
towing experience you would be mad to go over 80% of kerb weight IMHO (particularly with a single axle trailer).
The vehicle max towing weight (which as I found out recently, is actually calculated from it's ability to pull away on an incline) is the
manufacturers guide.
If you have an accident in your Focus Estate whilst towing over 1200Kg you won't be insured - end of.
Also - most insurance only covers trailers and contents third party - so if YOU crash it, your Locost (for example) won't be covered by your
towing vehicles insurance.
[Edited on 10/6/13 by scimjim]
[Edited on 10/6/13 by scimjim]
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mcerd1
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| posted on 10/6/13 at 11:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scimjim
The vehicle max towing weight (which as I found out recently, is actually calculated from it's ability to pull away on an incline) is the
manufacturers guide.
have you got any links to quoted figures for this ? - I've never managed to find definate limits for my cars...
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